Midori: I'll keep it simple. It's the self that we're not allowed to be in our everyday life. It could be… it could be the vulnerable child. It could be the evil genius. It could be the vampiric self. It could be the best jewel and animal. It could be… look, I'm an only child and I've spent my whole life trying to learn to be fair and generous. But what if I got to be super selfish and you liked me for two hours?

 

Nadège: Welcome to Pleasure Science, a podcast all about making you feel healthier and empowered in your sexuality. I'm really excited today because we have Midori on, and if you don't know who Midori is, you're about to be so stinking happy.

 

She's one of the trailblazers in the kink and sexology industries. She is a sexologist, an author, a coach, an artist. I actually met Midori over 10 years ago when Midori was doing a... no, it… and you don't remember. I remember because meeting you was so incredible. But you were doing a huge exhibit at the Japanese Art Museum in San Francisco. But I'm also excited because you just have such a wealth of knowledge. So before we jump into who you are, your expertise, I'm going to ask you the question that we ask every beautiful guest who comes on here. What is your definition of sex? 

 

Midori: Oh, boy. And hi, everyone. So you're open with this. All right, so definition of sex. Well, asterisk first, it is the most difficult and impossible question to answer that is the simple question. It is a simple question that is impossible to answer. It is so many things. And I suppose it's funny as a sexologist that I'm saying it is impossible to answer, which is why it's a lifetime of research. If I said, hey, I'm craving sex, it might mean that I'm craving an enthusiastic genital exercise. It might be that I am seeking bodily and emotional connection. It might be that I am simply meeting the physical act that leads to a bodily release called an orgasm. It might be if one is fetishistic. It might be that particular zoned out hyper focused state experienced in the presence of a non reproductive body part or object. Sex is dot, dot, dot. And I think what a lot of people… we think it's simple until we grow up enough and realize that it's not. 

 

And in terms of talking even you know like a quick hookup conversation, a quick assessment of what do you mean about sex right now? What do I mean about sex right now? Is there an overlap? That could go a long way in making things better for folks, but which is my non answer answer.

 

Nadège: I love that though because it's one of the reasons I ask this question. People don't ask themselves this question. We get this prescribed idea of what sex is. It's when something hard slides into something wet and it ends in an orgasm, and sex is so much more, which is something that I actually learned through kink and BDSM.

 

For me, realizing that the definition of sex was expansive and I could make it anything that I wanted to and I should talk about that with my lover, I got all of that from Kink and BDSM. And it's one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you because you've been a trailblazer specifically in Kink, specifically in BDSM. You wrote the first English language book on shibari, Japanese rope bondage for anyone who doesn't know. And so it's so nice to have you here because I think everyone has a different point in life, I hope, maybe it's this podcast for people, where they realize, sex isn't what I thought it was, or I want it to be more. And for me, that realization happened with kink and BDSM. 

 

And one of the most beautiful things that I actually ever heard you say, which also kind of changed my life, was that BDSM is playtime for adults.

 

Midori: You bet. 

 

Nadège: Well, actually, let's have you in your own words tell a little bit about your story. How did you even discover that you were kinky and then, you know, develop this whole… you actually call your website Planet Midori. And it's true, you go to Planet Midori and learn so many things on this planet. But what was your experience with BDSM? How did you find out you were kinky? And then how did that evolve into this philosophy of BDSM is playtime for adults?

 

Midori: I love that you like my definition. So my definition of BDSM or kink is childhood joyous play with adult privilege and cool toys. It's cops and robbers with shagging, where shagging's optional. 

 

How did I come to this? I've actually never come out into kink, if you will. What I did discover is that other people didn't do the things I did. So as I was sexual with myself, right? So first I'm sexual with myself. And then says a younger person, I'm sexual with myself. I had an active fantasy life. And yeah, you know, I enjoyed as a teenager or a kid to explore my genitalia, it felt really good. But I also enjoyed finding my mother's old fancy dresses and dressing up and putting on tawdry makeup and performing for myself in the mirror, if you will, exploring my identity. And there was something expansive and sensual about that.

 

I was a deep nerd. And as I became sexual with other people, you know, not just the showerhead in my hand, and my wardrobe, I was experimenting with things. But I didn't… And so I grew up in Japan, right? And so I didn't grow up with a lot of the sexual assumptions and shame, a different set of sexual assumptions and shame, right? But I didn't have this sense that there was a particular American way of a normative sex. And because I think I've always been, even before I identified myself as an artist, had a creative angle in exploring and storytelling that it seemed like I was just playing. 

 

And I honestly, I think I was fully in my 30s when I realized, and this is well into already being in San Francisco subcultures, that I realized that that sort of creative sexual exploration was not the norm and that people struggled to reconcile their creativity against the cultural norm. So I didn't discover I was kinky. I discovered other people were afraid of exploration. 

 

Nadège: That's so interesting. And I love that journey because playing with clothing and how you look is such a part of kink. And I think one of the biggest misconceptions about kink in BDSM is it's all about sex and you're having sex. And again, thinking to that normative definition of sex and orgasm. But so much of kink and BDSM play is about communicating and finding like, OK, do we have mutual desires and fantasies? OK, check. Do we want to play with these toys? Is there chemistry between us? Check. Okay, so now should we just role play? Let's have fun. What do we want to do? And sometimes that can include sex and sometimes it doesn't. But I love that your experience of discovering BDSM and kink had less to do with a hyper sexual experience, which I think is what a lot of people assume with kink, right? Like it gets associated with this idea that if you're kinky, you must be quote unquote a freak, and into all of these things. And it's like, well, what if you just like being in a pretty dress and someone calling you a princess and, and being read a bedtime story. That is one of the things I know I like, and that doesn't have to go further than that, you know, or all of these different things. 

 

But I love the way that you experienced that. And so when you are educating on kink and BDSM, what are some things that are important for you to share with people who maybe are newer of like this is kink and BDSM and, you know, this is how you play safely.

 

Midori: So what I want people to start to think about is the power of storytelling as well, story making, as well as the whole body as an erotic potential. Our skin is the largest organ and our brain has an amazing, you know, a lot of people say the brain is the largest sexual organ. Yes. And also the skin.

 

So there's that to expand on creativity, again, that sense of play, right? And on my definition, to clarify that, sometimes people get a little uncomfortable, like, please don't sexualize my childhood. I'm not. I'm childing our boring ass adulthood.

 

Nadège: Yes, I love that. Absolutely. And you know, that's another important part of BDSM that was really helpful for me was learning also not yucking people's yums, and how people will have different fantasies and different fetishes. We have you know the parent and child fetish, student teacher fetish, age play, power play… all of these things.

 

One of the things that I learned from BDSM that was so beautiful was fantasies aren't weird and they don't mean that you're broken or that something bad has happened to you or that you want something bad to happen to you. And I wonder if a reason why our fantasies… I think because we block off as adults, like we shouldn't be fantasizing, we should be responsible, we should be doing all of these things, that then when we finally have an outlet, it can feel almost overwhelming or almost like you're just face to face with so many of your taboos. So how do you see BDSM as this healing modality? And what have you seen in your time as an educator? 

 

Midori: OK, so exploration in kink and BDSM, as I was saying, is about play. It's also about creativity. And we're in a culture that tells us in many ways, overtly and covertly, that independent thinking, agency, creativity, and world envisioning is only left for certain special people. And the rest of us should just leave the genius creatives to that. And everyone else, all the rest of us, should be toeing the line and doing the things that are considered normal.

 

We've had a lid put on our creativity. And for many of us who don't have the primary authority of privilege in a room, so it can be marginalized people, genders, color, etc., we've been told to behave and to, you know, let the people who know better to slowly strip away our agency and our own voices and to accept that.

 

And I think of BDSM as a sandbox, a small experimental sandbox, where we get to, as you were talking about, standing up for yourself to explore our relationship to power, explore our relationship to having our own voice, to acknowledging our shadow, acknowledging our creative and destructive aspect, to explore our vulnerability. 

 

So for anyone, this would be becoming self. And I would, in terms of the healing… Today there's an entire industrial, there's a healing and self-help industrial complex, right? I'm not talking about that, which is… I have noticed that there are some people using capital T therapy, capital H healing to associate that with BDSM, and I think that is… I caution against that, because it may be a virtue washing away by of which to become more free. It's like, if it's not good for me, I shouldn't do it. Like, you know, we can take a walk because it's a nice day or I should walk because it is healthy. I can eat strawberries because I like strawberries or I should eat more strawberries because it is good for my health. It's like we have to give these adult excuses to just have fun. 

 

So I caution against “I'm doing BDSM because it's therapy.” But yeah, and okay, then here's a scary thing out there. Seriously scary thing. And I've been talking to some therapists who are noticing this as well. There are individuals putting out their shingles as a professional business who are not trained in mental health or helping professions and saying that they provide BDSM as therapy. And many of these folks are coming from a more predatory intention. And that does concern me. I think anything that we do where we're willing to try to be fully present and to engage our creativity with self and others has a potential to help us approach our whole self.

 

Nadège: Yeah. Absolutely. And we do have to be careful of that predatory… because it's so vulnerable to approach your whole self with BDSM. It can be vulnerable to even say, I'm interested in someone worshiping my feet, you know. And for others that could be like, oh, that's nothing. Are you kidding? I peed on someone the other day. You know, right? There's a whole level of things. 

 

But even if your fetishes aren't the most extreme, it can still feel so vulnerable to say that. And one aspect of BDSM, like its play, it can be very healing. You could find out so much about yourself. You can learn new skills, especially sexual skills like communication. But we do also have to keep in mind people who are predatory, and this happens just in relationships and dating in general. And so because kink and BDSM has an erotic aspect to it, that's a big part of it too. 

 

I remember a few years ago when all of the scholarship on narcissistic personality disorders were really hitting the mainstream, and people were really starting to figure out what that was. A lot of people in the kink community were like, oh, wait, I think this dominant is a bit of a narcissist. And I think that person and I saw that a lot in the kink communities. And so, you know, it's really interesting about BDSM. I mean, one, because we have so much communication and negotiation and that should be step one, people, if you're trying to play with someone and they're like, I don't need all of that. That's a red flag. You need all of the talks, all the communication. 

 

But it can be also like thinking of the healing, it's… because you're going to run into predatory people, erotically, no matter what. It isn't something unique just to kink and BDSM, but kink and BDSM will give you so many more tools-

 

Midori: So many tools, just the basic thing of negotiation. As I look back to, you know, my early days of becoming sexual with other people, you know, I was a young person, you know, we're feeling each other up, feeling, you know, understanding. I didn't negotiate. No, it was flirty, flirty flirty, flirty, flirty, you wanna, and then, you know, suddenly it's somewhere dark and feely, feely, you know? 

 

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. 

 

Midori: And yeah, nothing wrong with that. But at some point, learning the basic skills of, hey, what do you want? Just what do you want? What do I want? Right? 

 

Nadège: Yeah.

 

Midori: And the more nuanced negotiation. And for those who think that the negotiation, oh God, it's negotiation, it's boring. No, it can be really, really hot. It's like mental foreplay, but mental foreplay with an intention towards mutuality. And sometimes a hot negotiation in itself is a scene.

 

Nadège: Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, what are some tips that you have for negotiation for anybody who's listening who's like, okay, I want to go home to my lover or maybe I want to find someone to date and I want to have this negotiation. Where do I start? 

 

Midori: First step, negotiation and consent with self. So that's the first step. And it's not even specific, like I want rope bondage and leather bondage and spanking and roleplay. It's more at a bigger genre level. It's kind of similar to thinking about what do I want for a meal, right? Am I craving something big and elaborate, or do I just want a snack? Do I want a little makeout session with a little nipple tweaking? That's a snack, right? That's kinky. It's like, you know, meet me in the laundry room. Yeah. Um, that's like a quickie kink. And meanwhile the kids are watching TV. Right. That's a quickie kink. Am I just wanting a little snack or am I wanting something… Am I big hungry or am I a little hungry, right? 

 

Also, how do I want to feel? What are the ways that I might want to feel? So still not talking about tools and technique. Do I want to feel small and precious? Do I want to feel like dark and evil, rrrr? Am I wanting to feel haughty and imperious? Am I wanting to feel released from all responsibility? Or I could go with two out of those four and either of those two would be fine, right? So the first step is how hungry am I and how do I want to feel? And if somebody says I want to feel good. No, no, no, no. You need to break it down a little more than that. 

 

Another analogy I like making is going to the movies. I like going to the movies and negotiating or planning what hey, you know, to my bestie or to my partner, want to go see a movie? Yes. Okay. What do you want to see? And if somebody says horror. And I'd be like, Oh, God, no. So I'm gonna have certain genres in mind. Right? Do I want to see a rom com? I don't know. Is it a European rom com or an American rom com? Do I want to see a serious documentary? How do I want to feel? So that would be the first consent with self. 

 

You can also ask that question of the other before they start to get caught up in the technique. It also will affect resource like time resource, you know, the quickie little scene in the laundry room, as opposed to let's go rent a dungeon or a hotel and have a weekend. If I were thinking quickie in the laundry room and I said to you hey, let's play and you're like, oh ah, you must be expecting a big four-hour scene. We already have a miscommunication. By the way. Laundry room? Clothespins.

 

Nadège: For the nipples. I love it. I love it. So that's what's so fun, like people can misconceive that kink, just like you said, can be so elaborate or this long thing, but you can have a little play in the laundry room or the bathroom or the shower and you can really make it yours in your home and kink doesn't have to be all about sadism and masochism. I mean, it's fine to be a pain slut. We… like… definitely here for that. 

 

But also it's fine to just want a sensual, creative, erotic moment with your lover. And I think that is the biggest foundation. And such a good, like again, this is why BDSM is so healing. To anyone listening, when was the last time you were this intentional about erotic play with your lover, even if you don't identify as kinky? Have you sat and asked yourself for self-consent and wondered, what do I want to get out of this interaction? I'm going on a date with my lover tonight. What do I hope to get? And once I know that, how do I communicate that with someone? Right? So again, this is why BDSM is so damn healing.

 

Midori: Yep, yep. And how the self consent and what I just said applies to let’s just in quotations say not kinky sex. Even with something like, okay, so I'm going to go for the heteronormative missionary image, right? Okay, I have that in my head. Could I… do I just have 15 minutes or do I have all night, right? So there's that. Do I want cuddly sex or do I want to bounce off the ceiling?

 

Nadège: Yeah, such an important thing to ask. And I think that that is also where a big miscommunication and like erotic moments happens, where one person wants maybe romance or cuddles or just touch, and another person is like, I'm ready to go to plow town. Yeah, let's get crazy. And we need to talk about these things before, and kink gives you the experience to do that. And so with you, one of the things that is so incredible about you is you've been in the kink world for how many years now? Like you've been around for…?

 

Midori: 30? 

 

Nadège: Yep. So you're like a true kinkster through and through. What are some, as much as you're comfortable sharing, what are some fun memories that you have of kink to kind of give people… just to like wet their palate, get their brain a little lubricated of like, what's possible? But what are some fun memories that you have? 

 

Midori: Let's see. At a very sensual level, it was laying on the beach in Hawaii with this sheer scarf or something. It was like a sheer sarong over both of us as we were storytelling a make believe universe that was all centered around desire and sex and where body shapes could change. It was kind of like sci-fi meets fantasy meets sex. And we were just laying there telling stories. That was fun. That was great. So that comes to mind.  

 

Then there's… God, so many. Part of the thing with my years and decades now of experience is I've made so many mistakes. 

 

Nadège: Haven’t we all? 

 

Midori: I've learned from. And so this is a very memorable mistake with a happy ending, right? And I was at a play party, which is a private gathering of people who are doing kink in various parts of this like fun customized dungeon. It's not an orgy, it's not a swinger party, but it's a bunch of people doing kink and they're very social because they're all friends. And that doesn't mean we have to do the stuff with everyone else, just sharing space in the mood. 

 

And I was… I was mostly, back then, it was like 30 years ago, mostly bottoming or receiving, and it was the first time I was taking my then boyfriend out to a party and I had bought some rope and tools and the people that… my girlfriend and other people that had usually been topping me were watching and I was a little bit nervous, right? My boyfriend then, I'm doing things and he starts laughing, like laughing uncontrollably. And I'm kind of hurt. Like, he’s laughing at me. And then my girlfriend who was far more experienced and experienced at topping me and other people, sees my distress and comes in. And because she had permission to, she comes in and kind of puts her arm around me and said, it's okay. He's high. He's laughing because you've done good. Oh, so he was having all sorts of bodily neurotransmitter… the body going… body and mind, letting go of control and going into that uncontrollable, joyous laughter that, of course, you know, I was socialized to think that that was somehow… And I was quite nervous. I didn't know what I was doing. Oh, my God, am I going to get laughed at? It wasn't laughed at. He was high from play. I mean, no substance, just play. And that was so memorable.

 

Nadège: And I love that your other lover, your girlfriend, was able to see that and step in and say, hey, it's all good. You know, like this is actually a happy response to you just doing a great job as the sub. But no, I love that. That actually reminds me of a story that you had also told me once of when you're topping, you wear a very serious face. And you're having a great time when you're topping. But sometimes you'll tell your submissives, I might look very stern while I'm topping you. But it's because I'm very focused and I'm having the best time. I'm sternly enjoying myself. 

 

And it can be… but again, this is so like… We don't think to talk about these things until we're in a situation that asks for it. Something in BDSM that is… This is a BDSM philosophy that I personally use in every area of my life, which is setting the container, right? As a dominant and a submissive together, you work together to set the container, and what that means, and I'd love for you to also chime in to say what it means to you. 

 

What it means to me is, you know, me and my sub or me and my Dom will discuss what we want. And then I will allow if I'm subbing the dominant, like I'll say, you know, I want you to be a vampire. I want us to feel like we're in a fun Gothic wonderland. I want to be tied up. I don't wanna have too many responsibilities. You can guide me here, you can touch me here, you know, so we go over all of these things, and then my dominant… this is obviously someone who's excited to do all of these things because dominants are not vending machines for sex and pleasure, you don't just go to someone and say cool, I want the vampire package and then a dominant will morph into that. That's not how that goes, you know.

 

So anyway, but setting the container is this kind of mutual collaboration of what do we want to experience. And then, for me, the top will then, you know, kind of create that space and quote unquote container for me to surrender into as a sub or vice versa. If I'm doming, I'll try to create the container so that way my submissive can surrender. And that philosophy of creating the container is something I use in every area of my life where I'm like, yeah if I'm working, how can I create the perfect container for me to surrender into a workflow? If I'm out with friends or if I'm creating my own birthday party and I want to have a certain experience, how do I create that container? And so what does creating the container mean to you, Midori? Is it kind of a similar definition or do you have other things that speak to you when you think of this philosophy? Because it's something that… I love the whole creating the container, just ideology.

 

Midori: I like the way you describe that too, because it's also another way to allow ourselves to be more present. I'm not going to say fully present because I think that's a big pressure, right? And there's all this stuff about be present. And I don't think I should be fully present when I'm driving because I need to be looking down the road as well and anticipating.

 

But the way that you put container is a way other people may speak of it as setting the intention, right? Or clearing the mind. And by setting a container and a container box, beginning, middle, and an end.

 

And that allows for us to step out of it instead of having to be whatever… I am engaging in dominance and therefore I'm always going to be in charge. No No, I am in charge this time for this purpose. And in so many ways, we are in a world of multitasking. We are in a world where we're expected, so many of us are expected to be multiple things at once and to be exceptional at all those multiple things at once, right? 

 

Nadège: Yep.

 

Midori: And the container or intention or scene allows us to focus on fewer things in the now, and then step back to having to do 10 things at once because that's also life too. 

 

Nadège: Yeah. Ah, so well said. And I love that reframe of like, because I get that question all the time. And I know you probably do too. Like, how do I get present? How am I fully present? I want to be present in my body and all these things. And you're so right to touch on the fact that, one, that's a lot of pressure. So are we being present or are we just giving ourselves another thing on the to-do list? And two, that the goal should be more present, you know. It reminds me of that phrase, I think Emily, Dr. Emily Nagoski says it, “practice makes pleasure.”

 

So another amazing part of BDSM is aftercare. And this is something that we should be doing in our general sexual practice, whether it's kinky or not. But Midori, what is aftercare? How would you describe that and define it?

 

Midori: So, aftercare is what each individual needs for recovery and to regain equilibrium to get back to our everyday selves. And that's where every individual participating, not just the person bottoming, not just the person submitting, but it's like sports, you know, like after sports, you need a little recovery time. And everybody gets to have that.

 

And I often find that people bottoming get aftercare, but the people who are topping don't allow themselves or think of themselves as needing aftercare. Well, if you participated in any full-hearted, full-bodied activity, everyone deserves what they individually need and find optimal to get back to their full self.

 

Nadège: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And you know, I mean, that's just… So many things are running through my mind now, even thinking of that. I think a lot of cisgendered men who… stepping away from kink and BDSM, but just like will be having sex but not taking care of themselves emotionally are asking for it. A lot of people across the whole gender spectrum who might be too afraid to ask for what they want or need with sex. 

 

And then we have the lovely kinksters walking in being like, all right, well let me beat you up and then let me care about you afterwards and bring us back to equilibrium. But that's such a good point too, like all of the people, you know, in this situation, it is predominantly dominants, because I thought that with myself too, where when I would sub, I would expect aftercare. And I would tell the person I was playing with, I want you to cuddle with me. I want you to tell me I did a good job. And that's the aftercare that I need. 

 

But then when I would be doming… I remember finishing out a scene with this one woman, and it was just spanking. It was a lot of spanking, and you're a good girl. And so I thought, like oh, this is very light, you know. This is fine. But at the end of the scene, she kind of got up, you know, thanked me, walked away, and I just felt I wasn't complete. Yeah, like I didn't feel complete. And it was really interesting because this also happened quite a while ago at the beginning of my kink journey. So I just didn't think to myself, I was like, Oh, well, I'm the top. I don't need aftercare. Or if I do, I take care of that for myself, because I'm like, you know, almost as if like, I'm my own parent or something, when actually, it would have been great if she turned around and said thank you, mistress, that was a great job, you know, gave me a hug, just do something to make the whole erotic moment feel complete. 

 

And I think that's what's also really helpful about aftercare is it isn't just bringing us to equilibrium, but there is something really important about making a sexual moment feel complete, like kind of like what we were talking about at the beginning of this episode where you were like having a beginning, middle, and end. And I think in a lot of sexual experiences, especially casual sex, there isn't a moment of let's bring this to a close. Let's make this feel complete. Let's make everyone feel cared for, and almost even a fear, unless you're with a life partner, to say those things, like a fear to be needy. And so just again, you know, reason number 811, why kink is so healing and it gives us all of these things to play with. But no, aftercare is amazing. It was one of… I have to say, for me, and I'm curious actually to hear what you think. So my favorite things that I have learned that have been life giving things about kink is negotiation and aftercare. And of course, all the fun play, you know, we love all of that. But in terms of things that have really given back to my life, learning how to talk and negotiate and learning about aftercare, were life changing. What were some life changing things for you with kink and BDSM? 

 

Midori: Well, let's see. Oh, on the aftercare, I can give you an example of how I pre-planned an aftercare, because aftercare can be very different from one person to another. It also doesn't necessarily have to be with the person you played with. So there was a kink conference that I attended and I had engaged in self-consent and self-check-in, and I was like yeah okay kind of I'm in the mood for an intense high sensation scene where I'm topping for creating intense sensation, and I think of sadism and masochism not as pain, but experiencing intense sensation and sometimes even creating an ordeal, right? 

 

Nadège: Oh I love that.

 

Midori: And intense sensation’s relative, right? But I was feeling very rrrrrr and so I allowed myself to… if somebody approaches me, I need to see if there's chemistry and if there's a willingness or a seeking of mutually satisfying intensity and even an ordeal. So a couple of people thank you no, thank you no, and then this woman approached me and we were talking and like I'm really in the mood for bringing out my dark side to create intense sensations, to really push another person's body and push my physicality as well. And she was like, yeah, I'm looking for that as well. Like, okay, good, various other negotiations. I said, however, I also need a particular aftercare if I'm going to play with my own shadow. To bring up my own dark side, I want to be able to walk away from the scene and to play that evil villain, if you will. I want to be able to walk away, but I actually want you to be taken care of. But if I were to do the aftercare, I wouldn't get to stay in that lingering getting intimate with my own shadow. I wouldn't be able to do that. So I can only play with you if you can arrange your own aftercare. So we agreed on everything else, but the line in the sand was, I can't play with you unless you provide your own aftercare.

 

Nadège: I love that and honestly, that reminds me of a client that I had had this kinky couple where one person was very cuddly and the other person was not, not the biggest touch-based person. And a big breakthrough that they had had was realizing that for aftercare, the Dom, who was the cis woman in this situation, she did not… like when the kinky scene was over with her lover, she didn't want to cuddle. She didn't want to talk. She almost wanted to have her own space. She wanted to step away, have time for herself. It could just be 10, 15 minutes. 

 

And, you know, these people were in a very loving, happy marriage, very kinky people throughout their whole marriage. But that was this one point where she didn't realize that that was her aftercare that she needed was just a little solitude. And so she was foregoing her aftercare to give him cuddles, to give him things. And as we talked through everything, we sort of realized, Oh, you're gaslighting yourself into thinking that you don't need aftercare because it doesn't stereotypically look like what we assume aftercare to be, which is like, I want to cuddle, I want to… you know, and so it's like if someone listening, like if you don't want to talk much after sex or cuddle much after sex or you know, or even kink, that isn't you being a bad person. Maybe those are some needs that are unmet. How do we communicate that with someone and find compatible lovers? Because, you know, with that situation with these, with this couple, they found a great happy medium where once her husband knew, oh, she needs alone time. He's like, well, take your alone time. I don't care. Cuddle with me in 15 minutes. We live together, you know. It's fine.

 

Midori: And if they hadn't had that and had she continued with that, it would have turned into an obligation and the chore.

 

Nadège: Right.

 

Midori: I want to share what then happened. 

 

Nadège: Yes. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 

 

Midori: So she's like, OK, let me see if I can go find people, because we were at a conference or at a gathering. And so then she says she did. We showed up in the playroom and I'm actually in gym clothes because I'm going for like, you know, full grappling, right? And I'm like rrrrr, right. And she showed up with four of her friends and lovers as aftercare. And each of the four took four corners and protected our space. So we could go full on Muhammad Ali to Mayweather. We had full physical grappling, wrestling, all of that, and where she got to “lose” and go through this physical ordeal. 

 

Now at the end of it, my nostrils flaring, my heart rate’s up, she's curled up in this deliciously crying place, because that's what she wanted, to let go to a point of tears. And I am like, okay, all adrenaline and eyes dilated. And we were done. And I turned to the four and said, okay, it's your turn now. And now I needed to go off to my own to linger in getting intimate with my shadow, but also to reintegrate into my equilibrium. 

 

So I walked away, took my bag, staying in my evil genius place, but looking over my shoulder, I allowed that myself to look over the shoulder to make sure she was absolutely being taken care of by four people. And then I left the party and I went to a Korean spa where I massage bottom to a very mean massage Korean auntie.

 

Nadège: I love that. And you know, you've said this a couple of times, and before we close out the episode, I wanted to dive into this just a little bit. We could devote a whole conversation to this topic. It's something that I love to talk about, but you've mentioned the shadow several times. and, you know, the shadow is your subconscious. And there's so much in our subconscious that's sexual, but what does it mean to you? Like, what do you define as the shadow and why do you like having kink as an avenue to connect to your shadow? 

 

Midori: We could go full union analytical.

 

Nadège: I know, this is a deep one before we close, because you've mentioned it a couple of times. 

 

Midori: I'll keep it simple. It's the self that we're not allowed to be in our everyday life. It could be the vulnerable child. It could be the evil genius. It could be the vampiric self. It could be the best jewel and animal. It could be… Now, look, I'm an only child and I've spent my whole life trying to learn to be fair and generous. But what if I got to be super selfish and you liked me for two hours for my pure selfish IDness. 

 

And then afterwards I might do a lot of aftercare and caring for you and giving you cookies and and caring for you because then I need to balance out the I got to be super selfish princess child. And now I'm going to be back to the generous adult self. So yeah, you know, the self that I don't get to be, you know. Maybe it's rude, maybe it's impolite, maybe it's taking up a lot of space, maybe it's being small, maybe it's not making decisions, making all the decisions about, you know, getting to be Darth Vader.

 

Nadège: Oh, I love it. That's such a perfect place to end and what a good conversation. Thank you so much for being here. You have just so much knowledge and I love the way that you approach every area of sensuality and sexuality and kink. Just… it's so heart-opening and mind-opening. Every time you talk about these things, I learn so much more and get so inspired to just go be a safe and consensual slut. And it's the best. So Midori, where can people find you and how can people work with you?

 

Midori: Well, I am on social media, a lot of Instagram, a lot of Facebook, under Planet Midori, but where I spend most of my time is in my Patreon where I have lots of classes. I also have my artwork and twice a month I have live Zoom office hours for all the members. So patreon.com/PlanetMidori. 

 

I also work with individuals and couples and small groups in terms of coaching. My calendar online, if you just go to planetmidori.com, you'll find all my things. And I am absolutely available for individual work. I also work with training therapists and other helping professionals to become more kink-aware and savvy through my program Kink Informed Certification from Sexual Health Alliance. I'm very proud of that.

 

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And I love the Sexual Health Alliance. So anybody listening, definitely check that out. I've actually seen your classes and they're incredible. So thank you so much, Midori, for being here. We're going to have all of those links in the show notes so people can find you because I know you want to find Midori.

 

That is it for this week's episode of Pleasure Science. Please join us next week where I am going to be guiding you through a sex positive meditation. It's so yummy and it's really empowering. So you're going to want to listen to that. 

 

But in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok @PleasureScience. And please remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen. It doesn't just help us find new listeners. It also shows the entire world that we want to learn this information. We're hungry for it. We're ready for change. And we're ready to be sexually empowered people. So go ahead and leave a rating and click like wherever it is you do it.

 

You can also watch these episodes on the Pleasure Science YouTube channel, which I really recommend you do because you get to see Midori's beautiful face and, you know, really connect and get a feel for the people who are on this podcast because we're real people and we're so fun.

 

And last but certainly not least, you could go to PleasureScience.com to check out our online courses. As a listener to this podcast, you get 10% off any of our courses by using the word pleasuresciencepod at checkout. So go ahead and check those out. Thank you so much for joining this week, and we will see you next time.

 

This podcast is a Pleasure Science production hosted by me, Nadège, your resident sex scholar. The Pleasure Science podcast is produced by Laura Moore and edited by Camille Furman-Cullot. Our music is by Octosound and is licensed under the Pixabay content license. To find out more about Pleasure Science and to sign up for our online courses, please visit www.pleasurescience.com.