About the Episode

People think BDSM is “too intense.”
But the truth?
Most of you are already playing with power… just without consent, clarity, or intention.

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On this special BDSM episode, Nadège sits down with Javay Da BAE, the Millennial Sexpert, to talk about power, sex, oppression, and liberation.

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How do you play with power and sex, in a world that’s already oppressive?
What are the secrets you should know as you start exploring kink?
How does playing with sexual power heal you?

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This episode dives into all the BDSM secrets you wish you knew, and explains how to use these secrets to empower your life.

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Fans of the show already know: when we talk about kink, we go deep. This episode offers practical BDSM guidance, beginner insight, advanced reminders, and a completely fresh understanding of how kink rewires connection from the inside out.

Show Notes

Pleasure Science Courses - Use pleasuresciencepod at checkout to receive 10% off!

WEB • www.pleasurescience.com

BLOG • Pleasure Science on Medium

@PleasureScience on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube

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Transcript

Javay: And I feel like that's what really hurts me when I hear people re-perpetuating the shame, stigma, and misconceptions around kink and BDSM. Because if you hold that already, you don't get that pure unadulterated experience when… if you ever do venture into the world of trying it, you've already tainted the experience because you let outside opinions of what your experience could be influence that.

Nadège: Welcome back everybody to another episode of Pleasure Science, a podcast that makes sexual liberation your new normal by changing the way you love and feel loved.

And I'm so excited for this episode because we have Javay da BAE in the house, the Millennial Sexpert, a sex educator, a kinkster, a sexologist, and pleasure professional. Welcome, Javay.

Javay: Hello.

Nadège: I’m so excited to have you.

Javay: I'm so pumped. 

Nadège: And we're going to talk today. This is one of our, every season we do a deep dive into BDSM because I mean, you know, I'm kinky and everyone's about, if they don't already know, they're about to find out how kinky you are. And when I was thinking of who to bring on for an episode on kink, I knew I wanted to talk to you because so much about kink is power and power play, but we live in an oppressive world. And so everyone listening today, we're going to talk about kink, but where I feel like we're also going to get kind of philosophical. So…

Javay: Yeah, we will.

Nadège: So we always start off the pod by asking our guests the same question. So my question to you is, what is your definition of sex?

Javay: Oh my definition of sex. I would have to say that to me, sex is the euphoric experience of pleasure in a way that transcends solely one level of experience. Like, it's never just… to me, sex is not just like, oh, I'm only feeling in a physical. Like it always has additional layers to it. So it can be physical, it can be emotional. It can be like, just like the humorous aspect. Like you just got such a good laugh from that sexual interaction that like, it feels so good. Like you just feel on cloud nine. So to me, sex is more than just the body, but it is that heightened experience of pleasure that we have existing as corporeal beings on this earth. And damn, already we're getting too… I'm already philosophical.

Nadège: I love it. Hey, it's the Pisces way. Like what we can't, what can we do? But no, I agree. And that's why I love asking this question because I love how every different expert really brings another layer to this. And so speaking of, so we… your definition of sex, gorgina, And now the next thing I want to know is, what is your story with BDSM? And also if you want to share your story as a sexpert, because you have done such beautiful work as a sexpert, but kink has been a big part of that. So for folks who haven't met you yet, share a little bit about your story and specifically your BDSM story.

Javay: Yeah. So surprisingly, I would say that both roads are connected. It was never two separate paths. They were always hand in hand because I didn't realize that I was kinky until adulthood when I was like, oh, that's what this is. I should have known for my obsession with all early 2000s vampire media. Like, if that don't say kinky, like it was all leather. But, so from an early age, I was obviously kinky, though I wasn't consciously aware of it. But once I became an adult and graduated undergrad and moved to LA in my early twenties, the door was bust open. It was like, oh, Hey, yeah, girl, you on your own. Do your thing.

And so I was already dipping my toes into exploring kink and BDSM, and then I also started working at a sex shop because you can't live in LA with only one job even in the early 2020s, no 2000, no mid 2010s, I was like what is that. And so working in a sex shop developed my actual education around it, because everything that I knew when I was first getting started was solely from porn and you know, bad advice that you read on random ass websites on the web, on the internet.

And so by working in a sex shop, I learned more about kink and how to do it safely and what is good and bad, which was perfect timing because I was also entering into the kinky side of sex work and didn't have all of that foreknowledge. So I was like, yeah, this seems right. Okay. So learning adjacently from experience, but also from learning from education, I was like, okay, okay. I love this. I love that I get to actually have this educational component. And then I became the expert of my friend group. Cause i was like, no, no, no, y'all you're doing that wrong.

And so having that knowledge is what led me to want to go back to school to become a sex educator, more traditionally, because I realized it enhanced my actual lived experience in that realm. Instead of being like, oh, I will trust this random stranger that I just think is hot. And they obviously know what they're saying because they're hot and they want to do this to me. Instead of relying solely on that, which is definitely not the way to approach kink and BDSM. So don't do as I do, do as I say. But it allowed me to really see like, okay, this is it… to me, they're integral, the lived experience is so necessary for the traditional education to land, if that makes sense. So that's what… that's how we got here. It was like, be a hoe, learn some shit. Now I'm a hoe that knows some shit.

Nadège: Absolutely. I always say, if you want to learn about sex, you need to learn from a slut.

Javay: YES!

Nadège: That's the person who you need to be learning from. And so, but I love, I didn't know this piece of your story. So… cause when I met you, you were already in the process of getting both of your PhDs, you know, and just like a total baddie on the internet, the Millennial Sexpert. So it's so cool to hear how you started: one, we just started with the slutty journey, but also it sounded like you were doing some sex work. Were you doing some kinky sex work at the beginning? Like that was… tell me more about that.

Javay: Yeah, I was. So I started out because I was mainly interacting with men, like being a sex worker sub. I was like, no, my dude, I'm hot. And in my early 20s, do I look like I'm gonna be here for free? And so then, realizing very quickly, getting a whole like, oh, well, you have to call me sir, you have to call me daddy, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't want to do any of those things. Have you seen you, calm down.

So in those earlier stages I was obviously doing stuff that like was right it would be i now know are red flags in like the kink and bdsm world um But then I eventually like met a friend and she was in sex work. She was a sex worker. And so she like clued me in and she's like, no, no, no, no. no no na na na Don't do that. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, cool, cool. And so then like after meeting her, I like actually moved more into like the dom side of kink sex work, um which I obviously loved because hello, power.

07:37.05

Speaker

um um But yeah, it was, they were happening at the same time in the sense of like learning like this is not how this is supposed to be. Um, anyway, you draw it up, like it wasn't the way. Um, and so realizing like, oh wait, I can, I can make, I can put down some boundaries and set some rules around this. Um, so I did. I love it. And it's so true, you know, and that was relates to my story. Like when I was at the very beginning of my journey, I trained to be a dominatrix. I started subbing kink and BDSM was also my entryway into sex education. empowered communication, sex confidence.

08:14.52

Speaker

And it's so funny, because I feel like a lot of folks did dabble in sex work in some way in our industry, and some continued with it, and some became educators. And so I love that that was also a part of your journey, because we need to normalize that piece. you know First off, we need to normalize that you learn by doing, but yeah, tell me what you, I i see your face, what are you thinking about that?

08:36.09

Speaker

No, no, I absolutely agree about the piece of like how so many of us in the like education side of this world also have like a history in sex work. I actually like was, I wrote a paper in school um and actually was supposed to present it at ASEC, but then like life happened and that couldn't happen. But it was actually talking about like how um like we as like sexuality professionals need to recognize like the hierarchy that exists and why like the immediate response to sex workers in this like education space is like flawed and antithetical to like what we say we're about. And so I'm like so sad that I never actually got to go to ASEC to present it because I'm like, no, just because you are a sex therapist does not mean that you are a higher ranking sexuality professional. Like it doesn't make you better. Like just because I've traditionally become a sex educator, it doesn't make me better than other types of sexuality professionals that may have taken less like traditional routes.

09:30.63

Speaker

including sex workers and also like we need to like name that sex workers are sexuality professionals like they do so much labor that we as like sex educators do but even more because there's the added layer of like performing and doing sex work um And so like, i I absolutely agree with that statement. I'm like, no, y'all need to shut up and welcome sex but sex workers into this space, especially like being so someone in academia. I'm like, could y'all, like, I need you, like, you should not be writing about sex workers. You ain't done sex work a day in your life. You don't understand anything about this industry. and you out here publishing 20 million 50 11 papers sit down you want you haven't even you've never tipped a sex worker like stop stop it don't be putting me on your cv just for shits and gigs okay um so yeah i'm very passionate about that i agree i am super passionate about it i will die on this hill that we need to be protecting and honoring sex workers And that that is like one of the roots of healing society, healing ourselves, you know, and sex work involves so much therapeutic work, which got we'll have you on another episode to dive into that one. But no, but I love touching on that. But going back to BDSM. So what does BDSM mean to you? Because people listening, they're like, I know it's an acronym or I know it's it's pain or it and, you know, but what does BDSM mean to you?

10:54.29

Speaker

To me, BDSM means freedom, exploration, curiosity, pushing the boundaries, like introspection, like...

11:06.90

Speaker

devotion, like, passion, like, it means so much. Like, it's, because there are so many avenues to it. Like, it's never just, like, a one singular straight road that everyone follows. Like, to me, like, Kink and BDSM is essentially, like, our most, like, tangible way of, like, really, like, creating the life we want. Like, Yes, we live in a society that has all these like rules in place and like you can't do blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, oh we're going to give you a ticket.

11:33.02

Speaker

but um But like kink and beat yourself, like you truly get to make the rules. You get to decide how things go. And it's like actually in a way that like I think we as humans love because like we're about control. Like we live in a society where we have so little control. So like King can be a same gives us a space to actually be like, you know what, I'm gonna take the reins on this. And actually, i want to be in control today. I want to have the power and I want to decide what gets done. Or you know what, I don't want that today. I want to relinquish all power. I want to let go. i want to let someone else take the reins for me. um And then you add in the actual like,

12:07.42

Speaker

aspect of pleasure with this. Like what, like, honestly, I think that's what we were put here for. Like, no, we weren't made to work y'all. We was made to lay around, eat grapes, have somebody eat your booty hole. Um, and you tie each other up every now and then with like some nice vines, like that's what we supposed to be doing. um and that so to me, that's what ESM is. That's it's, it's what life is meant to be.

12:28.12

Speaker

Yeah, absolutely. Life, i and I so agree, one of my favorite phrases is like, life is meant to be experienced. Like if you want to pull everything back, that's what it's meant to be. And BDSM helps you do that. You know, it it helps create the language and the clarity and the freedom to explore. Because I feel like one of the biggest myths is like, oh, if I'm into BDSM, then I'm into this like really eccentric and larger than life experience. you know, sex experience, which is a total myth. Like, what do you think are some of the myths you see with people thinking, oh, BDSM, that sounds scary.

13:00.34

Speaker

um That it always means that there's going to be pain involved. ah That it means that you have to have like a dom or a like someone like in a position of power over you. Like it's only set up in those relationship styles, but it can't be done by yourself. which I'm like all of that is like so not true one you can do so much kink by yourself i actually like do more solo kink than I do like kink with partners um because of like that just like I'm interacting with people on the regular I like the solitude of like solo kinky time like I get to like just like zone out from the world and enjoy and especially because like it's not always the pain for me I'm like uh temperature play temperature play my go-to like solo kinky activity like it just like One like pulls me into like my body much more, much better than like anything else I could ever think of. um And if someone is like literally always like overwhelmed with a million and one things, like it's so nice to have something. I'm like, you know what?

13:56.59

Speaker

I'm ignore the world right now and I'm just gonna light a massage candle and I'm gonna give myself a nice little massager. I'm gonna light my wax play candles and just like, you know, create a little body art. I'm gonna get an ice cube and just like really enjoy like feeling the coldness on my own body. um But yes, like there's so many misconceptions around it. And I'm like,

14:14.01

Speaker

first of all, if we just like stopped like listening to like what big, like mainstream media has said about kicking BDSM, like if you shut all that out, unlearned it, erased it, like, you would actually be a blank canvas walking into an experience that you could make whatever you want. And I feel like that's what like really like hurts me when I hear people like re like perpetuating the stickless shame stigma and like misconceptions around kicking media sound. Like, because you hold that already, like you don't get that pure unadulterated like experience when, if, if you ever do venture into the world of trying it, like you've already tainted the experience because you let outside opinions of what your experience could be

14:51.64

Speaker

influence that. and I'm like, if you just like, you know, it let it all float away, get really high, forget that you ever heard it, you would be shocked at what that experience could be for you.

15:02.26

Speaker

Yes. And speaking more about solo BDSM, because one of the big misconceptions I hear, not just about BDSM, but sex, especially for single people is, oh, I want to explore kink or I want more sex, but I need a partner to do that. And then all of a sudden they're blocking their own ability. And so I want to take a moment here since you brought up that solo BDSM um for anybody who's listening, who maybe they're partnered and they want to explore kink and their partner isn't interested or maybe they're single. How do you start exploring solo BDSM?

15:33.75

Speaker

um A lot of different ways. ah Can I shamelessly plug? Yes, we can. Oh, my God, please. I actually have a Solo Kinks Yes, No, Maybe list on my website. That's a free download because I wanted I was talking about this during Kinktober. I was like, I want more people to one, start this exploration on your own because we like like so many people don't realize how easily influenced by others we are.

15:58.30

Speaker

Like you having your first experience of something with someone else is going to impact how you feel about it. Like you were going, if they, if their immediate reaction was like, and I was mid, you're more than likely to be like, oh, well, okay. I guess it wasn't that great. Rather than like you having your own first experience by yourself and be like, holy shit. I didn't know like I could have that all on my lonesome. Um, so I personally encourage folks to actually try it on their own by themselves for the first time. But also recognizing that be like the pressure of like, I have to do this with my partner when we know that like in this current society, so many people's like libido and desire are mismatched in relationships. Like one day you're like, this is a great day for me. I'm having a great time. and your partner's like, today was a shit day.

16:40.38

Speaker

they ran out of PB and J like Uncrustables. I was devastated. Like, you know, things happen that impact you. And you're like, I'm not in the mood anymore because I was really hoping for some Buffalo wings and that's not happening today. Um, so like recognizing that like the realities of the world that we're living in and how different we are as people, even if we are super committed and in devoted relationships where we love each other and we're like, i would love to always want to have sex with you when you want to have sex. Like,

17:04.68

Speaker

that's not the case. And so kink and BDSM by yourself allows you to still experience sensations that you can't have with your partner at that moment in time. um And also solo kinks, I think are really good because if you ever do want to play with somebody, you've learned like what your thresholds are by playing by yourself rather than going through the test of somebody else testing the threshold for you. Because again, like I feel like all roads lead back to communication. If you start out with somebody and you have never done kink on your own before, you are already limited in the way you can communicate about it. You don't know like, oh, this is how I can like what how can describe the amount of pressure I like or how much like actual like force I want you to put behind this impact. um But if you are playing by yourself, you are learning like, okay, I like this level of pressure. this amount of force feels good for me like when I'm doing my workshops for kink and bdsm I literally always go around and I ask people like would you like to feel what I recommend is like a good starting pressure um for like different types of play and they like I have them put out their hand and then I will like go around and like if I'm spanking I'll like give it a little hit or if I'm using an implement I'll do it with the tool um but I'm like I want you to understand like what we say when I we say like medium pressure like softer like You have to have an understanding before you can actually say it to somebody else. Because if you've ever gotten a massage, we all know that everybody understands pressure differently because you go into there and you're like, yeah, I would like medium pressure and they're beating the shit out of you. You leave and you're like, how did I get bruised?

18:34.51

Speaker

Yeah. Literally me. You just described me at every massage parlor because i I'm a super kinky person, but I am sensual. I'm not good with pain. so i so and it's such And that's such a good metaphor because I think a lot of people, right, like they don't – the massage thing, it makes total sense, you know? um i I love that. And everyone needs to go. We'll put it in the show notes to a link to that freebie because those questionnaires are like, you're right. All the roads lead back to communication. Those questionnaires are a great first step.

19:05.46

Speaker

And it's why it's so good to have you on the pod because people should find you after if they're like, Javay, teach me more. teach me like you can You do pleasure Rx sessions, right, Javay? Where someone can like yeah like they can book you via the internet and you can help folks with that.

19:21.40

Speaker

Yes. No, truly. And I'm like, I love to do them. So like, do it. a I love. And you know, so one thing again, that like is, is so central to kink, right? Is this idea of power and playing with power. And in the episode right before our episode, I'm sharing with people the secret history of Wonder Woman and how Wonder Woman was actually created by a kinky throuple, a married couple, a married throuple, two women, one man.

19:49.85

Speaker

and When Wonder Woman first came out, it was drenched in kink and BDSM and all of this imagery. And the guy who actually made Wonder Woman was a psychologist who studied disc theory, which is the theory of dominance and submission. And his whole shtick, this guy from the nineteen twenty s was basically like everything in our world is around power, privilege. You either have power or you don't, and we're eroticizing it at every level. So why not make that conscious, right? And Michel Foucault, who's a very famous scholar, then wrote The History of Sexuality and Sigmund Freud wrote like, so or no, it was Freud wrote a different book, but then there, anyway, oh, I'm going into my nerd spiral, but there's a lot of discourse around power and kink and BDSM. And so in a world where we are playing with power and in a world that is oppressive, that has hierarchies that are not okay, how do we navigate BDSM where we're playing with power and sometimes we're even recreating the oppression, but it feels good or it feels empowering or it is reclaiming, right? So how do we consciously play with this power in a world that's oppressive?

21:11.93

Speaker

Well, one, the first thing to do is actually recognize power. I feel like so many people still sit in this place of being like, well, no, like there's no power dynamic here because like, they're not like my boss or they're not, you know, so-and-so like they don't have like that thing. and i'm like, at the end of day there's always power. And until you can recognize that you can't actually play with it. Like you can't play with something you can't. See, that's why imaginary friends only stick around for so long because you stop seeing them. um So when you start to understand what power is, you can then make more conscious decisions around how you want to engage with it and how you want to use it to your benefit in these situations, be it by yourself or with a partner. Because

21:55.26

Speaker

You being able to say, you know what, actually, i do want to like, let you have a little bit of control today. And I want you to tell me what to do. I want you to lead me through my day today. I want to feel that release of pressure from society because society is telling us that we supposed to know what we doing every day, how we doing it.

22:10.78

Speaker

And we're supposed to, you have to have a plan, get your planner out, have your Google calendar. um I say it's someone that loves her planner and her Google calendar. But like you, our society is telling us that we are supposed to do, do, do.

22:23.32

Speaker

And when you get to do choose with kink and BDSM how you want to do things, you are taking back that power that we regularly don't have. Like, how many of us truly get to stroll up to work that aren't entrepreneurs with our own businesses, like, stroll up to work when we feel like it, do it how we want to do it? Like, that doesn't exist. But you can decide, especially with a partner in scene creation, like, how do we want to play with power today? Do we want to actually use, like, some degradation and humiliation to, like, really, like, like step out of like the confines of like what this language means because our society has made it mean these things or do we want to just like you know let's enjoy actually going back and forth like let's both switch today and like let's exchange power together in live time in a way that feels good for us like when you understand all the different ways that power shows up and how it also becomes erotic like you can do so much of kink and bdsm that society literally is telling you you will never have the chance to do

23:19.83

Speaker

You will never have the chance to wake up one day and decide, you know what? I'm wearing my entire puppy outfit the all day long because I want to. I'm cleaning the house as the good little pup I Woof, woof. Give me a cookie because I cleaned the toilet, bitch, and I didn't even drink out of it. So like you can't, society is not gonna let you do that. If you show up somewhere dressed in full pup wear, there's not a kinkabedia some event.

23:44.21

Speaker

You're probably to get the police called on you because of the society we live in. They're going be like, oh my God, pedophile. And it's like, bitch, the pedophile is who you called. what are you talking about? um So you have to actually like recognize that like you have so much control of your power when you are using it in kink and BDSM in a way that you are probably very ignorant and like obtuse to in real life. Like it's...

24:08.58

Speaker

It's your first awakening. Like this is how you actually wake up in the matrix. You start doing kink and BDSM and then you're like, yo, this is all fake. And it is. abs so Oh my God. so So, well said on every level. And I'm sure there's someone listening who's now wondering, okay, well I get it and I can be empowered, but then what do I say to the people who kink shame? The people who might turn around and say, oh, a woman being submissive to a man, automatically sexist. audit Like this is, you know, and and to the people who may be looking from the outside in and it looks some sort of way, but the people inside of it are so happy, fulfilled, empowered. And like you said, it's actually quite the opposite when you're experiencing kink. But what would you say to those people who are like, I don't want to be kink shamed or like navigating that?

24:58.84

Speaker

um So there's three things that I recommend when it comes to like you interacting with somebody that is known to kink shame. And literally someone asked me this question yesterday. I was doing a guest lecture on just like sexuality in general. um And they were like, what do you do when people like have like a negative response to you like bringing up sex things? um And the first thing is like, start with like, you got to break the tension of it. Like people feel uncomfortable for like underlying reasons. So you have to like, kind of break that away. You start making jokes. Like I want you to start cracking jokes and like, granted, that's not for everybody. I was the standup comedian for two years. So like cracking jokes is literally like second nature. I don't know how to not do it. And that's very bad in some situations, but you got to start off like, I want you to like diffuse the situation with them and be like, so they're like, oh, so you like to lick people's toes, bruh.

25:44.28

Speaker

taste a lot better than their, like their kneecaps. Like, what would you rather lick? Like, come on, like breaking that tension to like, let them be like, Oh, yeah that's a good point. I wouldn't want to lick the back of somebody's kneecap though. Some people probably into that. I just don't want you looking mine. Like I went to the gym today. Them crevices get nasty. um But, like, so you start off by diffusing it with some type of, like, laughter, comedy. And then um start to actually probe the question. Like, most people don't recognize it. Like, the reason you think this is not because it's what you want to think. It's because you were taught to think this. um So, like, probe, like, okay, so why do you think that kink and BDSM is, like, bad? Like, actually ask the question. And you're going to have to ask them a lot of follow-up questions, especially if their response is, like like, oh, because, like, if you do, if you're submissive to a man, then you're, like, you're, like, not a feminist. Um...

26:31.03

Speaker

Like with that one, keep probing and it be like, give me the definition of feminism because you literally are not being a feminist by telling me what I should or should not do as a woman. Like, babes, come on. Like, first of all, learn like we need people to read, like pick up a book, y'all. Like that would really help. And then the last way that I usually do it is like, just pre point out like, why are you worried about what's happening in my bedroom, in my relationship? What's going on in yours that you are so involved in mine?

26:57.40

Speaker

Like you are projecting right now, babes, you mad because I'm having fun, whatever the fuck I'm doing behind my closed doors. And you're not. And maybe you need to talk to your partner about that, but not about me and not about what I'm doing. Because me and my partner, we're talking about it, literally talking about it. um And usually it's like so many of the people that are kink shaming are the ones that literally are not communicating in their relationship. Like they are literally like, I'm just like not fulfilled in whatever way I want to be fulfilled. And it's like, why are you telling me? Like, you should tell them. I i can't change it unless you're to let me go talk to them on my own. And most people won't let you do that. So you need to say it to them and let them know like, hey, this, I'm not feeling it. Also, why y'all so mad at novelty? Like, why do y'all want to spend the next 45 to years in missionary doing the same fucking shit? Like, that's, I'm sorry. Maybe it's just because I'm neurodivergent, but like,

27:51.13

Speaker

no off with her head like you better not fucking try and give me the most monotonous sex life ever that is i don't ah why would you what what what that's like actively being like oh cornflakes are so delicious no they're not they were made to make you not be horny they are the opposite of delicious they're vile like it's it's evil like it's cornflakes are to like the same they're the same to me as like reagan getting rid of porn theaters they're equal fuck them things fuck reagan also fuck that fucker

28:27.48

Speaker

Yeah. I also agree that a lot of people, like, so such a side note, a lot of people hold up Ronald Reagan and this man, oh, the the awful things that this man did is astounding. And another episode to, like, to dive deep into. But but yes, you know, and thinking of novelty, your brain needs that, period.

28:51.42

Speaker

Like, your brain needs novelty. whatever your libido, whatever your sexuality, and whatever your relationship style. You need novelty and we need to have differentiation in our romance and our sex life. And so, yeah, we shouldn't be kink shaming because that's one of the most dynamic ways that we can do that. And kink is so diverse and can be so entry level. And, you know, this this whole thing reminds me of something I actually experienced at the Folsom Street Fair. For anyone who doesn't know, it's a huge BDSM festival, very, very sexy up in San Francisco. And the first year that I went, I witnessed a scene, a BDSM scene of um someone pretending to be a German Nazi from the war. And they had like a Jewish, like like someone pretending to be Jewish. It was like a whole... Holocaust scene. And I am someone who's Jewish and my family survived the Holocaust. And so I'm walking through Folsom Street Fair and then I turn around and I see something and I'm like, oh my God, even me, so so like someone who is so open-minded and open-hearted, It hurt for a second to just like witness it from the outside. But then I was also like, hey, I'm not going to yuck their yum. They have talked about it. We're at a kink fair like they have every right to do this. But it really got my wheels turning how like.

30:09.66

Speaker

like kink, it can be super entry level soft and and like very not not super crazy the way people can think. But then you can also really explore some darkness and you can really go deep and really go into the shadows of your eroticism and the shadows of society, right? And and the and the really oppressive power. And so, you know, when I saw this from the outside looking in, my first thought is, you know what?

30:36.06

Speaker

this was, I'm, I'm believing that this was fully consensual and, you know, and I'm that like good for them. Like I would, I'm not going to yuck their yum, but as someone for you, like when you, if you've ever seen scenes like that, what do you think about? Like it, is it not oppression as long as it's fully consensual? And like, again, like this complexity, like how do we, how do we navigate that as people who love kink and support kink and find the value in kink?

31:04.60

Speaker

Yeah. Um, so for me, like, uh, see my face probably gave a lot of reactions. Um, so my immediate thought is like one, uh, in that situation, like in the realm of like, so like doing some dark, like BDSM play and like things like race play. Like for me, I'm like, like, obviously everyone gets to choose what they want to do. Um,

31:26.10

Speaker

I personally would have had a problem because of like the public setting of the nature is like passerbys cannot consent to that. And that is like a highly, like that's very charged. um So like if that to me, that's something like if you want to do that, you are absolutely welcome to do that. But putting it in a setting where people, especially given our actual cle political climate, like that's a very alarming thing to just put out there without any forewarning.

31:53.56

Speaker

forewarning Or allowing people to consent to like actually like being a part of that. Because like when it comes to public like kink and BDSM activities, like everyone then is a part of this and you aren't getting their full consent to be in this type of setting. um So from something like that, I'm like, that's not to me, that's not a public setting one because you don't know how that's going to react to the like for the people that are actually. in this space like and you also then don't provide them any aftercare doing something like that you do this whole thing and they just gotta to keep it moving they don't get to like stay and then have you actually like take do your responsibility of like making sure that someone's cared for after that type of experience um so like for a public thing that's my personal opinion um

32:38.58

Speaker

I personally um don't engage in race play um ah for a multitude of reasons. um um Like once you get to a certain point of like actually being in higher education and you learn it, you like this, I can't even like, we can't even go down that path. There's no joking about it when I actually, like, I feel like so many people that engage in race play, especially if they are not themselves like a black person or um ah another like brown or like another, a non-white person. Like um there's a lack of social consciousness that I think exists that makes it so that way people like don't get the full magnitude. Cause I'm like, if you really understood what all was happening during the transatlantic slave trade,

33:26.87

Speaker

You wouldn't want to like lean on some of those tropes and actually say them to me when we live in a current society that still has forms of slavery, um that still like like regularly mutilates and destroys the human body of like Black folk. Like ah there's just some things that if you don't fully understand something, I don't think you should do it. And to me, race play is one of those things. um that I think that some people like enter into a little too preemptively because like there's some pre-work you need to have done before you do it. And I also like, especially being a black person, um I feel like I'm very hesitant of like white folks that are like, I love race play because I'm like,

34:06.83

Speaker

That's the first thing you say to me Just say that you want to say the N word to people and like get out my face because what you mean? Like, what? Like, why? Why? Why do you want to enjoy race? like Babes, your race is already enjoying it. Okay. Like what you mean? You woke up white.

34:20.54

Speaker

yeah Stop it. yeah um ah But that's just my personal thing. I don't want to yuck someone's yum. I just want people to be so like, I need you to think a little bit more critically before you enter into something that is so charged, which is also like a thing that like,

34:33.46

Speaker

we know ain't happening. Critical thinking skills are on the decline in the United States of America. um So for me, it's not that I'm like, ew, don't do that. It's like, you shouldn't do it if you don't have an understanding of the thing you're trying to do. And I feel that way about everything. Like, You don't just dump off the deep end unless you like, got you got enough swimming skills to handle it. And most people don't, most most people are like, I could just figure it out. And like, there are certain things in life that you shouldn't figure out. Tying your shoes. Yeah. You could just figure it out. um You know, learning how to change a tire. You can just figure it out. Learning how to play with another human being and care for them um in a multitude of situations. That's not something you just figure out.

35:13.17

Speaker

You learn ahead of time because, it's about care you have to take care of the people you're playing with um so i think that like more heavy things can be used in kink and bdsm but not by the naive or the ignorant like you need to do your due diligence um also because like if you're not you're just like reinforcing white supremacy within kink and bdsm yeah and that's that's not what it's here for like get the fuck out Yeah. Oh, totally. And something that I'm hearing that I hope everybody listening is hearing is like, if you do have a desire for any of these kinks, then it is your responsibility to educate yourself.

35:50.14

Speaker

And you do not have like, I fully agree with you where I personally would take a big issue with like, for example, what I experienced at the Folsom Fair, um like,

36:03.58

Speaker

Obviously, it was in public I was passing through. And you're right, there is no ability for care in a public setting. You know, that's something really important to think about. And, you know, i have no idea of knowing, like, the context of these folks or, like, but...

36:18.90

Speaker

It would be my hope that like they're educating themselves and they're thinking about it. And when it's interesting, when we think of the psychology of arousal, if you don't admire someone, you will stop feeling arousal for them and desire for them. And so I love what you say about like, hey, if you are into arousal, really dark, oppressive things, and you might you might be ignorant about it. It might actually show that you're ignorant about it because the second you start doing more research, you will probably lose admiration for the entire fantasy in general. And then your libido will transform and it will change and it will evolve. Because that's the other thing that I want people listening to understand is when you educate yourself and your libido evolves and changes, people will, like, especially I hear this a lot with men where they're like, I don't want you to take this away from me. I don't want to take away this this fun experience or this sexual thing. And it's like, no, nothing is being taken away. You're evolving. Yeah.

37:12.38

Speaker

You know, you started here and I, in my own way, in a much less charged situation, experienced it where at the beginning of my kink journey, I loved a good daddy and I loved saying the word daddy. I loved. And now in my kink journey, does that does nothing for me.

37:26.74

Speaker

I've I've explored it. I fantasized about it. I've educated myself on all of these things. And it's like a mixture of having tried it and scratched the itch and also just continuing to learn about all of the ways that oppression operates. And now I'm like, I love being called mommy. I could be called daddy, but I don't like, you know, it's like you evolve through the exploration and that's a beautiful part of it Which brings me to my next question. I personally think BDSM is incredible personal development. And so I'd love for you, like, how do you find BDSM to be personal development?

38:04.50

Speaker

Oh, oh my God. I love this question. um So one, obviously in that, like you're pushing yourself, whether you were, whether you're doing it in the physical sense or the emotional sense or the mental sense, like it is like pushing you. And as someone that is like always like, I'm, i I would say I'm competitive. Yes. um Like I did sports growing up. Like I was always after the best role in the school play and musical, like I'm competitive. um ah It's so great because the only person I'm in competition with is myself.

38:33.72

Speaker

Like it doesn't have the toxicity of like, oh, now I'm competing with like other women and like I'm competing with every other ninth grader in the county. Like, no, I'm only competing with me to see what my body can do, to see what I can do, to see what my limits are. um And so that aspect of personal development, I absolutely love. um The personal development of communication skills because board knows we are not taught communication skills, especially if you have grown up in the United States of America.

39:00.28

Speaker

They don't want you to communicate. They literally and they intentionally did not teach communication skills because they knew that that would be a tool that we would use to actually like fight back against oppression. And that's why they don't teach it. um And so the personal development of your communication skills growing like so...

39:16.92

Speaker

And incredibly through kink and BDSM is like one of my favorite things like I love it so much because like, and it's not in the traditional way that we think that we have to communicate, it allows you to diversify your ways of communicating, which I think is also like, so important because it like moves us again away from like white supremacy and this idea that like, knowledge only happens in one way and like all this stuff like no you learn to communicate with people through like a physical touch like if you're gagged you can't really say nothing so like how am i communicating my needs to you through physical touch how am i communicating my needs to you like through my words how am i communicating the emotional or mental needs that i have when like i don't i very like most of us don't have the language like most of us literally like would like

39:58.07

Speaker

be like i've never heard that word before if we had to look at the like emotion wheel that like therapists use like so many people like don't know words for emotions they're like i'm mad i'm angry i'm sad it's like yeah that's like the big one but i need you to hone in on the little emotions um so like the way that you develop in that sense to be able to communicate that to others like the benefits even outside of peak and bdsm like I have loved it because like I, me and my husband, we use safe words like to like describe like non kinky things. Like we use them in non kinky situations. um Like I'm generally like a very anxious attachment style. I think that if you're being quiet for longer than like two minutes, like you're mad at me, I've done something wrong. Like we know it's childhood trauma. We got to work on it. Don't talk about it y'all. um But I love it because like we have now started using safe words to like address like that feeling. So I can know like, oh, you're not actually upset right now. um I'm just like,

40:51.14

Speaker

I'm projecting like, I'm, this is me. i need to take care of me. Obviously I need something in this moment. I'm paying attention to that. um And also like as someone that's a, as a Pisces, like as like literally the most mutable water sign. and Okay. Like baby, we are always in moving and grooving, feeling it all. Like I can pick up on a shift change in vibes and emotions like pretty very quickly. um So being able to use safe words to recognize like, oh no, this is not like a,

41:16.69

Speaker

external you anybody did anything like this is an internal moment for me um like safe words allow you to be able to communicate that so much easier than trying to fight figure out like okay but like what is actually bothering me okay it's not anything that you've done like that's so much harder than to know like actually i'm not mad at you i'm just feeling some way but like i'm good like the simplified way of communicating um is one of the most beautiful aspects of like the personal growth and development that I think comes out of kink and BDSM. um And then just like the openness, I think, which especially if you are someone that might have more closed minded political views, I think kink and BDSM is like a easy entry point to being open minded.

41:58.30

Speaker

that then can let you be more open-minded in other areas of life. Like maybe you're politic and you might be like, yo, actually, wait, i I don't think that it's like a radical idea that I, that everyone should be able to eat like that. Oh, it's not, that, that's not radical. That's the standard. um Like, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a segue drug. It's a segue drug, gateway drug. It's a gateway drug. Can't get me the same as a gateway drug to being open-minded. So do drugs kids. Yeah.

42:29.85

Speaker

I love it. And I agree. What did you say? Sorry. i was like, no, don't do drugs, kids. Just to clarify, do not do drugs. I'm not telling nobody to do drugs because this is law abiding podcast. Okay. Only the BDSM drug, but no, it is, it's such a gateway to open-mindedness, open-heartedness, better communication. and And better intimacy. It's absolutely personal development. And in that vein, and for anybody who is listening, who is new to kink, curious about kink, maybe even intimidated, what would be some tips that you would have for those people as they try to explore BDSM?

43:09.30

Speaker

Um, first one, obviously being to educate yourself. Uh, like before you try and jump out in these streets and do anything, um, read, read a book, read, start by reading a book. And I mean, a I truly do mean a book. what a going' be like Do you have a book rec that you can think of?

43:25.64

Speaker

Oh, There's so many and like off top of my head, I'm like, I can see the covers. I could not tell you the titles, but I do have a link. I have like a book list that I have. Ooh, okay. Give us another, another amazing Javay resource. Please give us that link. But yeah, so reading books, what other tips?

43:40.66

Speaker

Yes. So reading books, going to workshops, like go and learn with other people because you feel intimidated because you think that like, most people are intimidated because they feel like they don't meet like the vibes of what a kinkster looks like or should be like, like most people think that kinky people are like, you know, all dressed in leather and like super fit and tone and like, Ooh, uh, very like mainstream media perceptions of like, Oh, this is like hot people do this. And like, hello, everybody's hot. Have you looked at yourself in the mirror today? um so like first start with like going to workshops so you actually see that like oh so many like regular degular people do kink and bdsm like it's not like one set subset of people or people that look a specific way um and then also you're learning from someone that actually knows what they're talking about or like hopefully do your research on like the place you go into the workshop don't just like go anywhere because they're like we teach kink and bdsm like

44:32.98

Speaker

about that um but like if you go to workshops then you also have a space to ask the questions and like I know as someone that is like a professor like so many people are afraid of asking questions because the whole like don't act I don't want ask a stupid question I promise you that when it comes to asking questions about kink and BDSM it's not stupid it could potentially be life-saving or it could just save you a world of trouble so like ask the question ask the freaking question do not just be like I'll just figure out no there's no need for anyone to just figure it out on their own unless you developed a completely brand new kink, which like, that would be very difficult to do in 2025, I promise y'all, like, there's no reason to not ask the question, please just ask it, um and then the next step would be to actually, like, get started with solo kink, like, start by yourself before you jump in in with a partner, I promise you it'll be a world of benefits, but like,

45:21.85

Speaker

Do it by yourself. After you've read a book, you've taken a workshop and now you're ready to explore on your own. Those would be the steps I would say for someone. And if you are feeling intimidated, one, know that like the percentage of adults in like the world that participate in Kink and BDSM, I want to say is what, 60 to 80%? The last time I looked at, there was a, i don't even know. the I don't know how recent that is, but it is high. Like there are kinksters all over the world. Like, yes, a lot of them are in like ah Berlin, but also in America. um so don't be intimidated like I know also more people are kinky than they know a lot of the stuff that you're probably already doing is kinky so just know that your grandma is also probably kinky so it's okay for you to be kinky grandma was getting spanked in that bedroom how do you think she came out with 12 kids

46:09.98

Speaker

They was doing some shit. Kinky shit. That's so true. And that's such a good point with feeling intimidated because you are right. The percentage of people who in some way, shape, or form are doing kink in the bedroom is huge. And a lot of people don't even realize, like, oh, I use a blindfold. I use a handcuff. um You know, we we like we do massage, delayed gratification. This is all kink.

46:33.94

Speaker

This is all out of kink. And so my next question would be, we have some tips for the newbies. What about tips for the BDSM um veterans? What are the things we sometimes forget or we can do better as people who are in the kink community?

46:49.75

Speaker

Um... Well, one, I think we like forget that like you can continue learning and you should continue learning. And like, obviously like, yes, you'll learn like new techniques for like the activities you engage in. But I mean, like you should also be learning in the sense of like, what are some new ways that I could try communicating with my partner around these topics? Like, communication evolves it's okay to read some communication books every now and then y'all um uh also like recognizing like yes you are a vet but also trend like things shift and change like in like a trend way we just like know that like we as a people like we have trends that we can see and that includes in kink and bdsm so like maybe like pay attention like learn like be like oh lately like a lot of people have been trying like adding this thing to this thing so like maybe i should give that a whirl see how that is like it's a very common thing right now um because like there's a lot of commonality in kinks like impact play is like so freaking popular like there are things that just like hold true for being like very commonly shared So take advantage of that. Like, don't think that, well, I know what I've been doing for the past 10 years. Like, I know what I like. Yeah. And also, um our taste buds change every seven years. Why would your kinky sexual interests not also change? They do. um So like, stop being beholden to like, well, this is what i I've known all along. Okay, old timer, try something new. Like, it's okay. You are not going to like burst into flames if you discover that you have a new kink.

48:14.55

Speaker

And I love that. I didn't even know that your taste buds change every seven years and food and and sex activate similar parts of our brain. So that just blew my mind because absolutely, of course, sex is going evolve and change even if you're not doing anything because of the way our bodies work. ah That is, i i love having you on because everything that you're talking about, I feel like you've brought such beautiful nuance to every level of this conversation. And so as we close out, we always close with a couple of rapid fire questions if you are ready. um And so the first question is, what is the best sex advice you have ever received?

49:00.18

Speaker

Oh, the best sex advice I've ever received. ah Okay. um That would probably be from like my childhood best friend's mom. um We were like probably like middle school age, like, and obviously learning about sex. And she was like,

49:13.89

Speaker

Don't stick around if you're not enjoying yourself. Like you don't have to stick around for stuff that isn't good or that you don't have fun with. That damn, that it's truly, oh my God, mic drop. And then next question, what is the worst sex advice you've ever received?

49:32.95

Speaker

You don't need to use lube, you're young. Yes. Oh my God. oh my God. Totally. Lube is, is, ah, we love lube. And then final rapid fire question. What do you hope will change about the way our society views sex in the years to come?

49:51.86

Speaker

Oh, everything. um um What do I hope will change? ah Damn, that's like so hard because truly my answer is like everything. um What i hope will change is that we,

50:08.47

Speaker

Our society will change like this fear around talking about it. like On every level. I don't mean just like at like the educational level. I mean like on the like personal friend-to-friend level. like You won't feel embarrassed to actually be at brunch having a good little kiki about, like oh my gosh, I hooked up with this person from Hinge and like I wasn't expecting nothing much.

50:26.90

Speaker

It was amazing. like That type of like comfort with talking about it. The comfort of talking to children and young adults in our lives and like not letting the same bullshit perpetuate every fucking generation. Like we could eradicate so much if y'all weren't afraid to talk about shit. Like if more parents were talking to their children and being like, hey, you don't have to do things you don't want to do. Like that peer pressure applies to sexual activity. You don't have to like be in a relationship because everybody else in a relationship. You don't have a right to other people's bodies. Like if we were having the real conversations, just imagine how different things would look. um

51:05.69

Speaker

Because it's generational. Like it's it's being passed down through families when you're all like, we have parents like, ah like content warning for anyone listening. um I'm about to mention some rape, but like there was a recent post that I saw um about a young high school man or boy, like young man in high school who raped three girls at his high school. And the police came to his house to arrest him. And his mother was like, don't do this. You're going to hurt him.

51:36.09

Speaker

As a mother, like you had a responsibility to do so much more in terms of raising your son. that that would never have been a thought that he was like, I can do this. I have the right to these girls' bodies.

51:48.66

Speaker

And this is why parents need to talk to their children. You are like the first place where they learn their morals. They learn their values. If you are not including sex in those conversations, you are opening up, you are literally making space for them to co-opt shitty ass fucking values and morals around sex. and around women and folks beyond the gender binary, if you aren't doing your due diligence of actually having these conversations. Because literally, I recently saw a post that was talking about how like someone did an experiment and like within six videos of just like automatically letting YouTube videos play, they ended up on Andrew Tate.

52:24.02

Speaker

We are living in shitty ass fucking times. And if you as parents can't have a conversation about these topics, your kids are going go to the internet, which is a hellscape place that anybody named mama with $20 can buy a damn domain and put whatever they want on the fucking internet. So do your part and actually have a conversation, actually say like, oh, um, you need to understand why you need to respect women because you are not entitled to anybody just because you were born with a fucking penis. Okay.

52:48.22

Speaker

Okay. um So yeah, parents start talking about sex. Everybody talk about sex, but especially parents. Like this is to start at home and having some real conversations where we don't let the same shit be passed down um because these values are garbage. Absolutely. And you know, in that vein, another reason why parents should really like educate themselves and have this uncomfortable conversation. You should also be having it with your young children. We need to be telling young children, this is what sex is and no one should be touching you there.

53:19.16

Speaker

Because the amount of yeah children who get violated, it is a direct reflection of the fact that we don't talk about this issue. And so then things happen to young kids and they have no language or understanding for what happened. And then they're not even going to tell their parents about it because they have no language. And so it's something as simple as like, hey, let me go to this young kid young person and say, hey, no one should be touching you there. And then when they're, you know, a little bit older, you have conversations again. But ah I ah completely agree. I would love to see that. change with sex and sexuality. And I mean, Javay, every time you speak, it's just like mic drop, mic drop, mic drop. And I know everybody listening is just going to want more of you. So where can people find you? Where can they connect with you? Tell us all your things.

54:05.82

Speaker

Um, so you can find me online at the millennialsexpert.com. Millennials fell with two L's and two N's. Um, I'm also on Instagram at millennialsexpert. Um, I'm on Tik TOK at call me Dr. Effin.

54:19.34

Speaker

Um, uh, what else is there? I'm like, there's all the social media, but Oh, Facebook at debate. Um, And ah obviously my YouTube channel. um Definitely subscribe to the FN Network on YouTube. um ah Yeah, I think that's everywhere. I'm pretty much on every social media platform. Hell, I'm on Pinterest. So like if you just search up JaVeta Bay or Millennial Sexpert on pretty much anything except for threads, you will find me but And we'll have all of those links in the show notes. And also just a special plug. Javay is working on a very cool cartoon called Welcome to Kinkyville that is amazing. And Hollywood it needs to green light it. So everyone also check that out and watch the trailer because it is amazing.

55:05.78

Speaker

So thank you for being here, Javay. Thank you for having me. That is it for this week's episode of Pleasure Science. We're going to be taking a short break over the holidays, but we will be back in the new year with the second half of this season. And first up, we're going to be talking about the big five sex struggles I see in every sex coaching session. So I know you are going to want to tune back in for that one because I'm going to share with you exactly how to fix your biggest problems. And so I can't wait to see you in the new year for that episode. But in the meantime, please come and say hi at Pleasure Science on Instagram and TikTok. I love hearing from you, so please leave a comment and say hello. And speaking of comments, if you are watching and Javay have the coolest conversation ever on YouTube, then please leave a comment as well and let me know what you learned because I know that Javay dropped some cool wisdom that you learned in this episode and I want to hear what it is. I read every comment on YouTube. So please say hi

56:08.57

Speaker

And if this episode made your heart or your hips move, subscribe, leave a review so we can keep giving you everything that you love. And remember, listeners of this podcast get a special gift, and today's gift is extra spicy.

56:24.28

Speaker

So I am going to show you how to bring your kinky fantasies to life in ways that make you feel confident and celebrated in your desires, and I'm going to do that with the BDSM Fantasy Lab. a guided video journey that teaches you the essential BDSM etiquette and how to find your people in the kink community.

56:44.33

Speaker

I'll teach you how to negotiate, how to create kinky compatibility, and how to bring your spicy fantasies to life. So listeners of this podcast get 10% off the BDSM Fantasy Lab. by using the code pleasure science pod. So click on the link in our show notes or head to pleasure science.com to start streaming the BDSM fantasy lab now.

57:05.63

Speaker

And thank you for joining us this week. Before I go, i want you to think of one thing you have been craving to do a big or small pleasure. And I dare you to go out and do that in the next 24 hours.

57:20.07

Speaker

I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.

57:26.40

Speaker

This podcast is a pleasure science production hosted by me, Nadej, your resident sex scholar. The pleasure science podcast is produced by Laura Moore and edited by Camille Furman-Cullot.

57:40.66

Speaker

Our music is by Octasound and is licensed under the Pixabay content license. To find out more about Pleasure Science and to sign up for our online courses, please visit www.pleasurescience.com.