Lotus: It's not coerced behavior. I actually like this. You know what is coerced behavior? Fucking driving to an office 45 minutes one way or the other each day, spending eight hours in an office, trying to make small talk with a bunch of goofy people that I have nothing in common with and still trying to maintain a pleasant demeanor throughout the day and not snapping. That is coerced behavior.

 

Nadège: Welcome back everybody to another episode of Pleasure Science, a podcast that makes sexual liberation your new normal by changing the way you love and feel loved. And this episode, I know it's going to be one of my favorites because we're talking about one of my favorite topics, but this episode is going to really blow your mind. We're going to talk about porn. We're going to talk about sex work, and we're going to explain why a lot of the stuff you think is unhealthy is actually very healthy for you. 

 

And I am joined by none other than Lotus Lain, who is an intimacy professional and advocate for sex workers and the adult industry. Hey, Lotus, welcome to the pod. 

 

Lotus: Thank you for having me.

 

Nadège: I'm so excited to have you here. We're going to dive into so many fun things. But the first question I always ask everybody who comes on the podcast is, what is your definition of sex?

 

Lotus: My definition of sex? I think something like any kind of action that sparks arousal and ultimately like a full expression of pleasure, whether it's like, yeah, some people think it's just penetration and some people say it's oral and fingers.

 

It really depends. I feel like sometimes people could just be diddling around down there and that's not really sex. And sometimes you can be having a really intense finger banging and that's definitely some sex. I don't know. I think it just depends on the expression that's had in the moment. Like when I say full expression, that's what I mean. You could just be touching and it's just like, you're just touching, or you could go to like the full expression and then you're like wet and sweaty and you're like breathing hard and you're like, whoa, change of like mental state and everything. You know what I'm saying?

 

Nadège: I do know what you're saying. And I like that intentionality of like, yes, it can be different acts, but it's also so energetic.

 

Lotus: Yeah, yeah. It's definitely more energetic, I feel, because I've had that thought and I'm like, well, yeah, it's not just penetration, but also there's moments where you just have a penetration and it's not even a quickie. You know, maybe you just are done or you get interrupted or did you have full sex or did you just have a moment of penetration? 

 

Nadège: Totally. And this is why I ask this question because we do think it's like, oh, it's something hard sliding into something wet. And speaking of what is sex? So one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on is at the beginning of my journey as a sex scholar and a slut and a slutty human, I started studying porn. That was like my entry level into everything. I found queer porn. I became obsessed. It was super hot. 

 

But one thing that I was really curious about when, and I remember I learned this at Berkeley and it was a huge aha moment for me, is that sex work and sex trafficking are two completely different things. And most people confuse them with each other. And that sex work is consensual, right? If it's not consensual, it's not sex work. And yeah, I can already see… take it away.

 

Lotus: That's the whole thing. That's the whole definition. Sex work by definition, it is consensual. You're submitting to certain conditions to do certain sexual acts or get certain payment for certain acts or behaviors. But in trafficking, and this is any kind of labor trafficking, you're being forced to do these things against your will. It's not like you're choosing and negotiating and deciding pricing on your own. It's being forced upon you and it's really a terrible situation that nobody wants to find themselves in. 

 

Whereas sex work can be something more liberating, empowering, whether it's like you're freeing up your free time or your mental space to do other things with your free time. Yeah, I think sex work is just like any other kind of freelance type of work.

 

Nadège: Amen. I agree. And one thing I always like to say to people is sex work is consensual. If it's not, it's not sex work. Just like sex is, if sex is not consensual, it's not sex. Like I feel like that- 

 

Lotus: Yeah, it's like rape or coercion or, you know, those kinds of things. That's literally in the definition.

 

Nadège: Yes, absolutely. And it is empowering. Like as someone who's had my own experience with sex work as a dominatrix, it was super empowering. And everybody I meet in the sex industry, these are the most empowered people. And I always say, if you want to learn about good sex, you got to learn from a slut. And so I want to hear a little bit about your story, Lotus. Like you, right now, you're intimacy coordinating. You've also done a lot of porn. You have been featured in amazing books, including the book We Too, which everyone should read. It's a really good one. It's all about, like instead of me too, let's talk about we too and include sex workers into the conversation. But what is your story, your slutty story, your sex work story? How did you get to where you are now?

 

Lotus: Wow. Like the whole story? Okay. I would say I've always been interested in sex since I was a young child. I don't know if it's the Leo in me, you know, they always say Leo women are wildly sexual. That was something that used to haunt me as a child. Cause I was like, Oh my God, no, this can't be true. Like these thoughts and all this, you know, I grew up Catholic. So all this guilt and stuff, but then… Let me see. I guess as I grew up in my young teens, early 20s, you start exploring more and realize sex is where I'm kind of finding myself and my, yeah, just my voice, my way of expressing myself. I might've been shy or just really type A minded before getting good grades and that sort of thing. And you don't really express yourself with getting good grades. You just attain the grade and you're a good kid, you know?

 

But yeah, I wasn't a sports person, so I didn't have this physical connection with my body. That's to say when I started having sex and even exploring BDSM and stuff later, I kind of realized, wow, I am actually a strong person. This is really empowering. And for a lot of people, sex can be really detrimental, sad, depends on their experiences or the way they think about sexual encounters. But for me, each one, and I had many different… I would say one night stands in my 20s, that it kind of led me to be like, oh, this is really something I could take seriously, like as a profession. 

 

So I had my two serious boyfriends in my 20s, two five year relationships. And then after that, was like, well, if this doesn't work out, I can always just do like it'll be my dirty 30 gift to myself. And that's exactly what in fact happened. By then I was a young mom of a five-year-old child and I was raising them with the sense like, oh, you can grow up to be anything you want to be. And I felt like that was such a lie because I personally hadn't done that myself. So the chasing, whatever I was chasing to find out in the sex world, because at the time you come, like the worlds are very separate. Like you're in the normal person world doing regular jobs, you know, and the retail and hotel hospitality industry. And then you decide to do porn. And like, you're in a whole different world, opened up to whole different people, mentalities, and ways of living. It was just so different.

 

And so that's when I started. I actually… that's a whole story in itself too. I met this girl at a strip club who was doing porn and she introduced me to her literal pimp. And we had a little love affair. And I was like, this is fucking deep. I can't do this. And I'm like, let me just do porn. That's safer, and it was, and it is. And so then I just followed her lead on the porn contact. And then here I am today.

 

I found that so many people do get taken advantage of in the industry. And maybe I did in certain ways by just getting misdirected with misinformation. And that's what got me more into advocacy for sex workers, because I realized the industry in itself is not bad or dangerous. It's the way people treat and stigmatize sex workers from the outside, the way they treat anybody that has done sex work is like a dirty, unredeemable, slutty, filthy whore that's going to taint anybody that comes within their path, or it's also dangerous because... it's like, there's so much misinformation. There's no real guidance. It's every man for himself. So if you kind of get the bad information, you're going to have a bad time. You're going to have a bad trip. You're going to have the worst experience. 

 

And then the people that go off to have really long lasting careers or really amazing financial gain, they've had good things happen to them. Good advice. They've known a better path to go on. And that's what led me to create Inspire at Free Speech Coalition, which is the industry newcomer support program to kind of dispel the myths, the bad myths that people get into in the industry that lead them down the wrong path of misinformation. It's kind of just basic “this is how you're going to be successful in this industry” information that anybody should have access to, whether it's like tax info, this is how the industry works, this is how you verify if someone's a scam or a fraud or not, because that's really what I realized is a lot, I'm so going off, I'm sorry.

 

Nadège: No, this is important. 

 

Lotus: But the people that we think are bad about the industry are the fraudsters and the scammers that are actually not a part of the legitimate porn and adult industry. The legitimate industry is a legitimate business industry and it's thriving and it's a billion dollar industry and people are making money and having legacies and going on and on and on. 

 

The scammers on the outskirts that thrive off people not knowing what they should know, you know, being naive, the misinformation, the mystery and the mystique around the industry. Those are the people that make a bad name for the industry. The girls do porn dudes. They weren't in the industry. They're just some fricking scammers that lured girls into hotels. And that's the type of stuff that leads to actual trafficking.

 

Nadège: Yes. And what can we keep an eye… No, and we're going to go really deep into this because I want, like, there are some incredible statistics about all of this stuff, including how porn doesn't even make it into, porn and sex work does not even make it into the top 10 of all industries when it comes to any type of sexual assault or work misconduct, porn and sex work doesn't even make it into the top 10. 

 

So I, and we're going to talk about that in a second, but you brought up something really important. So how does someone look out for these scammers? What is a clue? So that way people know to buy porn in an ethical place, or if someone wants to explore doing sex work, they know not to go to that van over there on the corner, right? What should someone look for? 

 

Lotus: Definitely if you're a consumer wanting to buy ethical porn, go to sites that are US or Canada or UK, like European based. When you start getting more into the based offsite sites, like Eastern European countries and things, it's really hard to verify if they're doing things in an ethical way. And it's not to say that those countries have scammers, but they don't have as many regulations to prevent scamming from happening. So, you know, it could be a scammer from Alabama, but they're hosting their website in Russia because they know they could get away with it over there. So I'm not saying it's anything against certain countries. It's just they know that the laws are more flexible or they don't even necessarily have laws the way we do in the U.S., which is a good and a bad thing because those laws are in place to keep everybody safe and keep things in an ethical standpoint and legal. But then it also creates this kind of black market underworld where people know they could go to other sites. So with that said, try and go to like U.S.-based, Canadian-based sites. 

 

Usually there's some sort of, I would say, disclaimer or something on the website kind of giving their mission statement or how they conduct business. Some sites even have model interviews before and after. And you can see part of the personality of the model coming through, which I've always loved as a consumer. 

 

Nadège: Those are my favorite. Oh no, those are, I'm like, cause I love emotional connection. So I love watching people fuck. And then I love watching the porn stars after talk. And I'm like-

 

Lotus: What they really feel like in the morning. 

 

Nadège: Yeah.

 

Lotus: They were feeling that? Okay, cool. Maybe I don't feel as guilty thinking this was so hardcore, I indulge in it. Or maybe now I feel an extra element of turned on because they were saying something that I didn't even register was happening, but now I see it. So yeah, those interviews really will give you a clue as to how the real performer, human person, was in this moment. 

 

You can also do your research. There's so many articles now that have the different companies talking about the way they conduct business on set or with performers about their experiences. So yeah, a little bit of research goes a long way as far as if you're going to perform for ethical sites and you're a newer performer trying to navigate that. Do your research as far as ask around. We are a small community, but we are a large widespread community. Everybody talks. Everybody has a reputation. If you ask someone, hey, have you worked with this producer before and no one's heard of them? That's usually a major red flag. I wouldn't be the first person to work with this person that no one's ever heard of. Or if you even go to their site, ask to see it, see if it's the kind of content that you want to be associated with, if that's the kind of fan base you want to attract that are into whatever you're seeing on their site. See the other performers on their site, if you like those performers and what they are all about and what they represent, you can reach out to those performers and say, hey, how was it working on this site? How was your experience? And they'll tell you, you know, the real deal was really cool. It was easy going or this guy's a real dickhead. It's really hard to get through the day. So you can make your decisions based on that. And some people are like, well, I could get through a hard day, whatever. Or some people ah oh, no, I'm too sensitive for shit like that, but you really should when it comes down to it whether you're consumer or performer do your research. There is a big wide vast internet nowadays, it's not like the old days where it's just word of mouth and it's lost in the wind. There's documented histories of how people are treated and the way you should be treated so to do that.

 

Nadège: Absolutely. Yes, 100%. And I totally relate because I remember in my kink journey, I got introduced through a friend of mine who was a waitress, not in the community, to a dom. And I did what you said. I asked around to all my slutty, kinky friends. And I'm like, has anyone heard of this person? He goes by, I won't say his name on the pod, but I said his name. No one had heard of him.

 

Lotus: And that's even something in person that you can do if you're discovering kink and stuff or playing sexually in person and someone wants to go deeper. Yeah, you would ask the people that you met them through, your friends.

 

Nadège: Yep, 100%. And so speaking of this, there's incredible research that we now have that shows that in countries where sex work is legal, cases of rape and sexual assault go way down. And I want to even read some of these studies, and then I want to ask you a question about this, because I want everyone listening to really get the research. 

 

So there was a 2023 study of prostitution laws across 31 countries over a 20-year period that found that decriminalizing prostitution led to a drastic decline in rape, and it made illegal sex trafficking way harder to do. Then another study in 2017 in Rhode Island found that decriminalizing indoor sex work, for and anyone who doesn't know what that is, we're referring to escorting services, brothels, massage parlors, that led to a 30% decrease in rape and sexual assault in Rhode Island. 

 

So, Lotus, if we know that decriminalizing sex work makes everybody safer, why do you think the focus is still on criminalizing sex work? It's the devil. That's the way we protect people. Why are we getting it so wrong in our society?

 

Lotus: In our society in particular, I definitely do believe there is a war against women and women's bodies, especially because the war that's being the people that are waging the war, they think of sex work exclusively as something that a woman does, which is not just women doing sex work. There's all types of bodies doing sex work, male, trans, non-binary, the whole gamut. But In their worldview, it's a thing where women do sex work, women are being trafficked, young children and women need to be saved. So that's one angle of it being demonized so heavily, but also in the same vein of war against women, they don't want us profiting from this in this way. I don't think they want to see us thriving from something that they think is morally wrong, that it could be their daughters next if they wake up and smell the reality. 

 

Nadège: Smell the OnlyFans.

 

Lotus: So I think there's a lot of fear in all of that because as we were saying in the beginning, there is a sense of empowerment in it one way or the other, whether you're reclaiming your sexuality, finding out that your body isn't as disgusting as society tries to tell you it is. There's just so many things to learn about one's own self and sex work. And I think that knowledge of self is something that… I mean, these powers of be have been trying to end, stop since the Adam and Eve era. So yeah.

 

I just think the morality police, it just feeds into all of that. And honestly, there's no way to tax sex work if we talk governmentally, so there's also that greedy sensation around it. Like they can't tax it. So how are they going to regulate it? So are you going to get rich from it and, you know, make your living off of it. It's the whole thing.

 

Nadège: Yeah. And it reminds me a lot too of whorephobia, which if anyone doesn't know what that word is, it's the fear of sex workers and sexually empowered people. How do you see whorephobia? Because I feel like whorephobia ruins everybody's sex life, whether they're aware of it or not. What do you think about it? How do you see it cropping up?

 

Lotus: In our society, I think whorephobia kind of takes over in especially… I've noticed the most in straight female friendships. Even if it's unspoken, it's like that subtle clocking of like, Oh, how many dates has she gone on since she recently broke up with… it's like they're keeping tabs on each other's body count or promiscuity. It's “oh well, you know, I don't have those problems. I've been with my boyfriend for so long. Oh, we're so lame, but like, I'm so loyal and so protected from these disgusting dating stories you single women go through”, like little subtle digs like that I've noticed. 

 

And I think in other relationships that are like maybe queer women or even just sex work women where there's a mix of straight and queer, even if there is competition, maybe it's like in a different way, more playful. But it's definitely more celebratory, I would say, in a way that I've never experienced in straight, cis, female friendships, where there's just always that subtle competition or shaming of like, “oh my God, be careful. You've had that many sex partners. Are you being careful?” I mean, there's people that have had one and can catch a case or a pregnancy off of that. So don't tell me about being careful. So there, I think that is one way I see whorephobia in society, especially in female friendships. But wow, if we want to talk about just men and the way they see women, oh my God.

 

Nadège: Ooh, let's talk about it for a second. Cause I think women policing themselves is sinister and it's a way we trap ourselves, but yeah. And then men and whorephobia, it's a big problem too. What do you say there?

 

Lotus: Men are, I just say they're just psychopaths for real. Like they want us, but they hate us, but they want us, but deep down inside, maybe they even want to be us like bro. Yes, it's fun to be a slut and to be desired and to be sexy and, you know, like… Sorry that not everybody can embody that, but we actually can if we stop hating on each other. And that's the funny gag of it all. Like, I think the hate comes from this deep embedded jealousy. Like, why do they get to be like that? Why do they get to experience that? Who says they get to get away with that and not have to be punished for being slutty or have the consequences. What are the consequences I should have? Everyone should have a disease. Like, you know, what is the consequences? So things like that that they wish upon people are like, let's take this away so it's illegal now. Okay, well, you could be slutty and celebrated too. Like, again, back to before, it's an energy thing. It's not like how one looks or like whatever. Yeah, it is a little bit of charisma. So get that together. That's on you. But the thing is, I really feel like on both sides, it comes from a jealousy, hate, like, why do they get to? I don’t get to.

 

Nadège: Yes. I agree. Because people were taught how to police ourselves. That's the part we never talk about. And then we use sex to do so. And so you're so right that it's this inner jealousy, but also this, like, if society isn't going to punish you for being a slut, then I'm going to. Exactly. We have to watch out for that.

 

Lotus: I’m going to. With my stigma, with my words of shaming, with whatever. Yeah.

 

Nadège: And studies show you're twice as mean to yourself as you are to other people. So everybody listening, stop slut shaming others. Your sex life will improve within a few weeks.

 

Lotus: Stop slut shaming yourself too. Look in the mirror and know that you are also worthy of lots of pleasure. 

 

Nadège: Yes. And speaking of that, a good way to stop doing that is by watching porn. You know, porn can be super healthy for you and it can be super healthy for your mind. There's studies that show that women who watch more porn actually have more orgasms than women who don't. And so I want to take a second to just go down the positivity train. So Lotus, you've been in this industry for a long time. How has sex work improved your life?

 

Lotus: Wow. I definitely feel like I have more of a selection of things to be into, whether it's really sensual vanilla type sex or passionate, romantic, kissing, touching, all of it. I just know how to experience and enjoy different types of sex instead of, and and thinking of it in different ways, instead of just having a narrow minded view of like, oh, it's just like penetration. And when the guy comes, you know, so that is fun. 

 

I think I've also experienced being attracted to different bodies in ways that I didn't expect to be, and getting pleasure from different types of bodies and people in ways that I probably wouldn't have been open to before. So yeah, I think it just opened up my pleasure scope, what's available.

 

Nadège: Yes, and that is why it's so healthy for people because sex is something you learn through observation and conversation and porn is like, hey, here is like, first off, we know it's a performance. These are actors, right? You're not going to watch a romantic comedy and think that everything that happened there is going to happen here. Yeah, like it's the same thing. Like we know porn is a performance.

 

But you can explore anything and get a taste of anything. You can watch it and show your partner, hey, it really turned me on how he did this to her. Can we try that? It's so helpful in so many ways. And when we stigmatize it, we're actually just stigmatizing and blocking ourselves. And so- 

 

Lotus: Our own pleasure opportunities, yeah. 

 

Nadège: Yeah. And so what do you think people really get wrong about sex work or porn?

 

Lotus: That it's just inherently exploitative. Okay, they keep putting their own morals on the performers. Like, no woman should be exposed like that. Like, what are you freaking talking about? Some of us are exhibitionists. Some of us really, really like that. And it's not because of some past traumas or bad things. Some of us are just hams and we like people looking at us. Oh my God, you know, like some of us- 

 

Nadège: Relatable.

 

Lotus: Yeah, aren't that shy. Like it's just… that one always gets me. And I think that is the one that really actually still gets under my skin to this day because I'm like, what will it take for people like you that think that it's just inherently exploitative, especially to women, if a woman is telling you from years of experience in this actual industry that I like it, I enjoy it, it's fun, it's thrilling to me. Like, what is it going to take for you to believe that and believe that there's no strings behind my head, no puppet master, no guy whispering in my ear, telling me to say this? There's not like, it's not coerced behavior. I actually like this, you know, what is coerced behavior? Fucking driving to an office 45 minutes one way or the other each day, spending eight hours in an office trying to make small talk with a bunch of goofy people that I have nothing in common with and still trying to maintain like a pleasant demeanor throughout the day not snapping. That is coerced behavior.

 

Nadège: Yep. Oh, I talk about it behind closed doors. I talk about it all the time, how we have to decolonize the corporate brain that's in our head. 

 

Lotus: Right. Yeah, people think that's normal? That was hard times for me. You know, those were the rough times.

 

Nadège: Not the times with the sexies. 

 

Lotus: No, not the pile driver with the camera right against my butthole. That was perfectly fine. 

 

Nadège: And what do you say to people who come to you? Because what I love about you is you're not just a performer. You're not just an intimacy coordinator. You're an activist. You go all over the world. You fight the good fight and argue these things, you're doing the things that most people say they're going to do and don't do. But what do you say to people when someone turns around you and is like, but what about the girls? What about the girls getting all the exploitation? What do you say to that?

 

Lotus: I just say some of those girls really like that and they have autonomy to make those decisions for themselves. They don't need someone like you imposing your beliefs or making those decisions for them because you're actually doing exactly what you think a pimp is, which is making decisions for them.

 

Nadège: Yes. And actually, in thinking of that, at the beginning when you were sharing your story, you mentioned how you had met a pimp and you two were lovers. And people hear the word pimp and they're like, uh-oh, it's the beginning of the end. she's about… we're about to hear the sad story. Are there any misconceptions too about pimps that even to share really quick.

 

Lotus: Yeah, he was a goon, he was a fucking goofball. He wasn't almighty and powerful. I just think he had people around him that were willing to listen to him, maybe they're a little weak. That's also why I wasn't like taken over, he recognized I was not going to just like bow down to him and listen to him, which I guess was what earned me respect where we could just hang out on an even level. I don't know how how to even explain it, maybe these people were under some sort of hypnotization of thinking they were beneath, like, yeah, when you really have a low self-worth you don't see yourself as equal to other people and it's easy for people to manipulate you and tell you to do all these things, but me being of sound mind and body I couldn't just… he couldn't just say hey bitch do this, I was just like okay, like literally like, all right fool, like laughing at him, and I think I noogied him or something. I don't know. He's just very silly, but like loud, and maybe the loudness scares people. 

 

With that to say, people cannot have power over you unless you let them. That's, I think, what I took from that whole situation. And he was just surrounding himself with people that were listening to him bark off orders. And eventually I just stopped hanging out because I was like, well, I'm not going to ever listen to him. This was fun. This is an interesting peak. But it's also getting really deep and real. And I can't save these people, which I couldn't, so. 

 

Nadège: Absolutely. And speaking of that, like I mentioned earlier, there are statistics that show actual across all different types of industries, the rates of assault and violation that happen in the workplace. And sex work does not even make it into the top 10. And I loved what you were saying about how like, yeah, if you have less self-esteem, you'll be more easily manipulated. That's not a sex work problem. 

 

Lotus: Yeah. Yeah. That's an any problem. I mean, I remember working at a shoe store before and being cornered by the... you know, manager dude, because he was leery and gross. And I didn't know what to say, but it had nothing to do with sex work or sex, even… it was a shoe store. But he knew I was a young, insecure, whatever. So he could corner me and make me feel weird. Who knows what he did to anybody else? 

 

But yeah, I bet in so many other jobs that I've had before sex work, I thought about it. The Me Too movement definitely happened while I was doing sex work. But those things have been happening in every job. And that's what I realized. I was like, oh, when I was a waitress, oh, this happened and all this stuff. And I'm sure so many of us as women have had those moments where you're like, oh, that little brush up, those moments of discomfort. That was me being sexually harassed.

 

Nadège: Yes, and I relate because when I was in retail, I got harassed by one of my bosses. I've never had in the sex industry anything happen that has happened to me as a waitress, as a retail store person. And for anyone listening who's curious, like, okay, what are the industries where assault and violation is bad? Let me tell you, it's the Ubers and the Lyfts. Those make the top five. It is people who work in janitorial staff and night staff, also makes the top five, entertainment, people who are in airline and travel, people who are in hospitality, food, restaurants, people who work on farms. So these are all the stuff; look at all that we're listing. We haven't even hit sex work and porn.

 

Lotus:  And these are respectable jobs as people like to say, “respectable jobs” but there's been many times I've been disrespected in those respectable jobs.

 

Nadège: Yep. Same. And so what do you want people to know as we think about decriminalizing sex work? How do we support sex workers? Because we're up against so many stigmas, so many of which are not true.

 

Lotus: Well, the the thing is, too, I want people in society out there to just realize that so many of the things that they benefit from even nowadays had origins in sex work, like even the PayPal app. The fact that people didn't want their credit cards on porn sites, that was something. The fact that we have home entertainment just in general, you know, because VHS tapes, because people wanted to watch porn at home and not go out to the porn movie theaters.

 

Nadège: The porn theaters. God I think that was a life. I would want to go. We could have gone together. Oh, my God.

 

Lotus: But yeah, you know, so all these modern comforts that we take for granted had origins in giving, you know, in sex work, whether it was to give people access to or have more privacy. So I would say listen to performers, sex workers, porn stars, when we're talking about something political online publicly, because usually it's very important and it's usually going to trickle down into the rest of society. And we're literally just trying to warn you guys. But for some reason, if tits are out and if butt cheeks are out, you think we're not serious, but we're so fucking serious. The thing with age verification that just started happening. A lot of people now are seeing that certain sites are not accessible in their states. Certain freedoms of theirs have been taken away on the internet unless they want to submit their biometric data, which is your eye retina scan or something like that, or your facial scan or your ID. And if you have an expired ID or a lost ID, which, you know, shit happens. We all always go through those ID things. I guess that week you are not watching any porn and you are not going to have any kind of release unless you just use your imagination. 

 

So yeah, or again, they're directing you to the pirate sites, which could give you viruses on your computer or they're more likely to have child sex abuse material or revenge porn, nonconsensual images, all the bad stuff that we're actually legislating against in this crazy ass country. You might be inviting onto your computer if you're trying to circumvent all of the barriers we now have against adult and explicit material online.

 

Nadège: Yeah, it often makes everything worse.

 

Lotus: Yeah, get a VPN. You never know what will be blocked next. 

 

Nadège: Yeah, truly. And what safeguards do you think we can put in place to make sex work better for people? And maybe this could be things in society or maybe it's things in the industry, but what can we do to improve sex work?

 

Lotus: I think it should just be decriminalized on a national level. The thing is, when we use terms like legalization, it also creates another black market where there are people that wouldn't qualify for legalization, whether it be through fines or fees for a licensing or maybe they have a certain legal status that would prevent them from being legal or immigration status, or whatever. 

 

So, or if it's different states, things like that, that complicates things and creates another area for criminalization and then a black market. So decriminalization would be better. Just let it be literally an agreement between two consensual adults, where if something happens, just like with between two consensual adults, if someone steals something from someone or doesn't pay for services, it can be brought to court. It can be brought to authorities and it could be handled in a legal business dispute rather than, I don't know, the cops taking the sex worker around the corner and also raping her because she's reporting a crime and there's no real legal way of dealing with that so they know they can get away with things like that. If cops know they can't get away with things like that and everything's up on the table for everybody then everybody will be a lot safer.

 

Nadège: Absolutely. And I think one of the big keys that I'm hearing too is we need to talk to the whores, the sex workers. We can't keep making all of these decisions politically. 

 

Lotus: Without people that it literally involves. Yeah, that's a big problem in our country in general. Trying to create legislation around communities or populations without including that population at the table, creating these laws and regulations. So yeah, listen to whores, listen to porn stars, listen to sex worker sluts. We know our lives better than anyone else. It's not a big mystery. But for some reason it’s treated like that.

 

Nadège: It is! And you can protect the people who are going to get violated and who are more vulnerable when we listen to the people who are empowered. Because just as you said… I've learned so much listening to you in this conversation… of different things of like if we have the legalization in this way, oh, it makes things less safe over here. Like what we… because that's the other problem here is that people will be introduced with a solution and if it fits respectability politics, we think it's a good solution for sex work and it's often the worst one we could imagine.

 

Lotus: Right. Yeah. Because whether you're making now the customer the illegal person or the, you know, provider the illegal person, legalization that's literally all it does. It just creates another barrier for entry. And the thing about sex work, any kind of, I would say even any kind of physical, I always compare sex work to construction work. The thing is, you should just be able to do it, just of your own volition, your body works, you're able to provide this service, you're able to get compensated for said service. And there shouldn't be any other governmental barriers or structures preventing that. Because often people use it as a step up out of probably the worst situations of their lives, whether it's abuse, mistreatment, you know, anything. So yeah, legalization only makes that tougher.

 

Nadège: Yeah, which is such an oxymoron until you sit down with someone amazing like Lotus Lain and get to talk more about that. And as we wrap up all these amazing things, what are some things you're excited about right now in the industry?

 

Lotus: What am I excited about? I am excited about, honestly, just kind of the way it's been put back into the performers’ individual hands as far as direct to fan site popularity, even in this wild economy, you know, people are still, you know, even with the age verification things kind of preventing a lot of money being made online, I think it's still important to note that performers, porn performers, sex workers are still able to produce video content direct to their fans and able to monetize it in that way. And to me, that's always the safest form of sex work. It's not one-on-one. It's not in person. Yes, it does require internet and some sort of tech savvy, but I feel very empowered by that myself because I feel like it allows one to do solo content, group content. It's kind of sky is the limit. So that is always exciting to me.

 

I'm excited to see the future of trends, whether the whole AI thing is going to take off as much in the industry as people… not want, but it's available. But also I know that consumers are wary of that and they don't like that when they sense they're talking to a bot or that messaging or programming is AI influenced. It doesn't seem welcome. So that's what I'm saying. When I say it's exciting to see, like, yeah, it's just as exciting to see what the actual outcome… like what's going to happen? How is this really going to be received? Is the bubble going to burst? I can't predict one way or the other, but I just like to see what could happen because our industry is always changing. We're always kind of at the forefront of technological advances or trying new things. So if this doesn't work out, I know we'll be the first to be trying out the new next thing. 

 

Nadège: Yeah, and that's another myth that people don't realize. Sex work and sex tech, we are often at the forefront of so many things and then it trickles down to the rest of society. 

 

Lotus: Yeah, to other people. Yeah, I mean, think about this whole world of being connected and everything in video chatting. I'm pretty sure that probably started somewhere along the line with someone wanting to video chat their favorite, you know, webcam girl or something like that. So you're welcome society. 

 

Nadège: Literally. I always, whenever I hear the word you're welcome, I'm like, there's come and you're welcome.

 

Lotus: There is. Hopefully it tastes good. 

 

Nadège: Hey, yep. I agree. Ah well, Lotus, thank you so much for being here.

 

Lotus: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

 

Nadège: We always close out with some rapid fire questions. So are you ready for your three yummy rapid fire questions? 

 

Lotus: Yeah, I'm ready.

 

Nadège: So the first question is what is the best sex advice you have ever received? 

 

Lotus: The best sex advice I've ever received? I guess it would just be, just let go, you know, just let go. Like, don't focus on trying just like be in the moment, let go. 

 

Nadège: Yeah. Ah, that's totally, that's so good. And now what is the worst sex advice you've ever received?

 

Lotus: Probably someone saying to use Vaseline as lube, like back in the early days, like my young days.

 

Nadège: Yes.

 

Lotus: It’s so thick.

 

Nadège: Do not do that listeners.

 

Lotus: It's also petroleum jelly. Like what? Yeah, definitely bad advice. Don’t… Guys, don't even use that as your jack off masturbate. Cause I know some guys do that. Get something better. Get something with some actual lubrication. 

 

Nadège: Yeah, go on Amazon. Two clicks. Two clicks my friend. 

 

Lotus: Yeah. It's not expensive anymore either. So, yeah.

 

Nadège: And then, final question. What do you hope will change about the way the world views sex in the future? 

 

Lotus: I just hope people will see the beauty and positivity in sex. It's literally the origins of life. So demonizing something that sparks the creation of life and our entire existence is not inherently bad. It's the weird extra ideas and things that we put on it that makes it bad. But that doesn't even come from our beginnings, we just put these extra things that make no sense for what, like for what, just to make ourselves feel uncomfortable. Let it all go, embrace the beauty and wild messiness of sex and stop thinking it has to look a certain way. Yeah.

 

Nadège: Yeah. I love it. 

 

Lotus: It's so beautiful when you stop trying, it's just like fun. 

 

Nadège: Oh, and it reminds me of this poem from Nayyirah Waheed. We were all born from sex. There's no shame in such a creation.

 

Lotus: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's what I always think when people have so much stigma or shame or shyness or, you know, anxiety around, I'm like, wow, let it go. That's literally the origins of life. If you think of it more that way, it's not as big of a deal, but it's also a bigger deal than to just treat it so shitty too. 

 

Nadège: Yes, absolutely. Ah, I'm so… I knew this was going to be such a good conversation and Lotus, I know everybody is obsessed with you now. So where can they find you, your content? I know you have a podcast. Where can folks find more about you?

 

Lotus: I'm online, so on Twitter I'm @itslotuslain, on Instagram and TikTok it's @icy.lotus and I have a website icylotus.com so hit me up, message me, follow me, let's stay connected 

 

Nadège: Yes. Wonderful. Well, that is it for this week's episode of Pleasure Science. Join us next week when we will be talking all about digital intimacy and your digital responsibility. And I love how Lotus mentioned revenge porn. We're going to talk a little bit about that in this episode, but we're also going to talk about all the ways you show affection with your phone, with your photos. Digital intimacy is fascinating. So I know you're going to want to tune in next week for that because it will forever change how you view sex, love, and your cell phone. 

 

In the meantime, you can say hi to me on Instagram or TikTok @PleasureScience. And I love hearing from all of you. So please comment, say hi. I cannot wait to get to know you. And if this episode made your heart or your hips move, please subscribe and leave a review telling me what you learned so we can keep giving you more of what you love. And if you are watching this episode on YouTube, hello, darling, leave a comment, let us know what you learned in this episode and Lotus and I can both say hi to you.

 

And before I leave you, I have a special gift for everybody who is listening to the Pleasure Science Podcast. So a few years ago, I created something called the Touch and Trust Method. It is a video guide that shows you how to read your lover's body like a map and how to de-shame your brain so you can show up to sex feeling present and proud and fully yourself. The Touch and Trust Method has already helped thousands of people and as a special gift, listeners of the Pleasure Science podcast get 10% off using the code PleasureSciencePod. So go and check out that link in our show notes or go to PleasureScience.com to look up the Touch and Trust method. And it goes well with porn, you know, learn a little bit, watch a little porn. It's all good. 

 

And thank you for joining us this week. Before we go, I want to encourage everybody listening to do something that you have been craving to do. Okay. That little luxury, that little pleasure that you have been putting off. Stop doing that. I want you to go do that little yummy pleasure tonight or in the next 24 hours. 

 

Farewell for now. I'll see you next week.

 

This podcast is a Pleasure Science production hosted by me, Nadège, your resident sex scholar. The Pleasure Science podcast is produced by Laura Moore and edited by Camille Furman-Collot. Our music is by Octasound and is licensed under the Pixabay content license. To find out more about Pleasure Science and to sign up for our online courses, please visit www.pleasurescience.com.