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Notes From A Queer Cripple

Disability After Dark: The Podcast

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Transcript

Andrew: And so we always talk about caregiver burnout, and I get that. But I also think, what about needing care burnout? It's exhausting to need somebody all the time for fucking everything and to have to be nice and calm and cordial.

Nadège: Welcome back to the Pleasure Science Podcast, a podcast that makes sexual liberation your new normal by changing the way you love and feel loved. And I'm so excited today because I'm talking to Andrew Gurza, a Disability Awareness Consultant. And this conversation is going to blow everybody's minds because of two things.

One, everything that you think you know about disability is wrong. And two, you never think about how hot disabled people have sex. And today that changes. So Andrew, welcome to the pod. I'm so excited to have you. 

Andrew: Hello, Nadège.  Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here today.

Nadège: We met on the internet and I started following you for years and I loved everything that you would post. And then a couple of years ago, I actually hired you as a consultant to help with our courses because I wanted to make sure our Pleasure Science courses were really just aware of all the different bodies. So everyone listening, just a plug to Andrew. You need him and you should hire him. But Andrew, something that I always ask people when they come on the pod, it's their opening question is, What is your definition of sex?

Andrew: I've been thinking about this question for a while now. Since we were… Since we knew we were recording today, I've been thinking about going to answer this one. It's so nuanced because 20 years ago I would have said sex is like, you know, all the things that I wanted to be and all this body movements, all these things. But with, for me, with somebody with severe disabilities, my definition of sex really has changed, I think, since I started having sex in my twenties, now I'm in my forties.

And it's so much more about intimacy and connection and like spending time together that I think it's much more of a, It's going sound a bit woo-woo, but much more like a spiritual practice for me than it is like, we have to do all these things. It has to be hypersexual. We have to like fuck all the time. And it's so much less about that now and more about like, oh, I just want to spend time together with the possibility for intimacy to be there.

Nadège: Yes. And I love what you said about at the beginning of your sex journey. I feel like so many of us can relate to this. We're focused on how the body is supposed to body. And then that is sex. And so, you know, and also as a queer person, how did your, and this was just, I mean, actually even let me take a step back. You are like a queer disabled icon. Like I mentioned, 

Andrew: Thank you.

Nadège: I learn at you, You are, you so are. And so a question I was gonna ask is like, you know, cause you talk about it in your book, which by the way, Andrew's book is incredible, Notes from a Queer Cripple. But you talk about in your book how coming out as queer was something that you really had to contend with. It was a big part of your journey, both as a queer person and a disabled person. But then I thought to myself, I wanna hear the whole journey for anyone who hasn't read your book yet, cause they're all gonna go buy it. But how did you become this icon you are today? We're now speaking publicly. you You are so unapologetic, but you had this whole journey. And so tell us about that journey.

Andrew: I mean, yeah, I was a really shy teenager, shy kid, really insecure, really wanted to be popular and be cool and all the things that you want when you're a teenager. But then I had the added reality of being very disabled, physically disabled, needing help with everything. And so I remember when I realized that like 12, 13, for sure that I was queer, was like, well, fuck. I'm going to add queerness to all things that I already bring that are problematic to my disability, and going to be queer too? Like, shit, I can't do that to my family. What the hell? So I remember hiding it and thinking I have to pass it straight. I have to be this, you know, really macho guy because that's... And when I came out, it was the late early so like...early two thousand so like that the whole idea of being who you are and being open with who you are was really not hadn't come back around again yet So like, um, I was very concerned with how my queerness would impact my place in the world. And I remember I used to watch the original Queer as Folk back in the day, and I used to have my friend secretly VHS record that for me. And I remember watching like these really attractive, able-bodied people fuck around, and I was like, that's I want that. That's what I want. I want some 31-year-old to pick me up at a club when I'm 17 and take me back to their house. Like that whole show was problematic for all those reasons. But at the time it was really hot to have this older guy be into you and like want to show you how to, how to do queer sex. And like, that was, I mean, there's a scene in that show. Anyone who's watched the show knows the scene I'm talking about. There's a scene where one of the main characters gets rimmed for the first time. It was like groundbreaking for anyone watching. It was like, especially like a queer male identified person was like, Oh, I want to know how to do that. And so I remember seeing those scenes and thinking, I want that, but how can I come out as queer? um' How can I come out? Yeah. How can I come out as queer? I'm already disabled. I'm going to break my family's heart and I'm going to be kicked out because in all those shows in the early 2000s, when you came out as queer, the family said, fuck you. And they kicked you out and you were on the streets. So I imagined this dystopian reality where my family was like, oh, you're queer. Like if we can't have that. Goodbye. know? And which is, that which is funny. Cause my, I have queer family members. Like, There's no ounce in my family that is homophobic at all. My mom was a hippie from the like 70s who lived australia in Australia and like was raised on Priscilla, Queen of Desert, like all the stuff that, you know, when I came out to her, the very first thing she said after it's okay, don't worry was, do you think Brad Pitt's hot? And I said, of course I do. Like now we know he's a bit of a dick bag, but 25 years ago, it's like, yeah, he's really hot, and yes, I think he's really attractive, like, sure, so that was our, that was our conversation, and then she sat me down, and we had comfort food, which I'll never forget what it was, it was yogurt and honey, and we sat down, and I cried some more, and then she cried, and then she told my sister, who, like, being a, being a teenager also laughed at me, and so I knew it, I was leaving, I knew it, so, like, You know, just sisterly ribbing. And so, like, then we watched Priscilla, Queen the Desert. And she said to me, if ever you want do drag, that's fine. And at the time, I was like, no, mom, I'm not one of those gay people. Ridiculous. And so it was funny because four years later when I went to school, I called her and I said, hi I'm wearing a bra and some ah high heels. I'm heading to the drag show right now.

And so, like, that those moments for me are really key in my coming out because there was no... upset there was no problem but she did say to me what in that first conversation she said you know gay men are not going to know how to handle you because of the disability I just want you know prime you for that and at the time I was 16 so was like you know you're talking about I'll be fine and then when I went out in the world and noticed the ableism by myself, I was like, oh, she was right. Oh, they don't know how to handle me. And that's kind of been on my back ever since then. and I'm 40 now and I've never had a long-term relationship. I've never gone on a second or third date. I've never had somebody be like, I really like you. I want to i'd love to see you again. um Let's see what happens. And I think a lot of that is because being with me requires that you be a little bit selfless. And I think, a lot of queer men, unfortunately, than they've had to be, I understand why, but I feel like they're a little bit selfish. And so I feel like that community is not in a place yet to be like, oh, I should provide care for someone else too. And so I just feel like that community, as much as I love being queer, I also bemoan that I have to be in love with men because they're so, it's like, why, why It's so hard oh no.

Nadège: It is hard. As a bisexual queer myself, there is such a difference between non-men and men. And so I can relate. But I loved everything that you got into and your vulnerability here, because one of the things that is so important about this conversation and so important about privilege is privilege, in a sense, is… It's like all your blind spots. You know people turn off when they hear that buzzword because they can feel attacked. But one of the biggest lessons of that buzzword is it's showing you exactly where your blind spots are. 

Andrew: Yeah. 

Nadège: And one of the biggest privileges of ableism, or maybe this could even be showing my ableism, but I do feel it's people realizing, oh God, I have to be burdened with caring for another. And I grew up, my mom was sick my whole life. So I grew up in and out of a hospital. So I grew up with, that was my normal. And when she died, I was suddenly like, well, I don't have to care give. And so I noticed this in others where I'm like, well, people have an aversion to caregiving. And I do notice it more sadly with cisgendered men, you know, gay or not. And so I appreciate you bringing that to the table. And my next question, like hearing your journey and how you've got to where you are today as this public figure is why did you decide to really become an advocate for this community? And would you say that are you an advocate for the disabled community first, the queer community? Like how do you identify with your advocacy as well amidst the different parts of your identity?

Andrew: Big question. First of all, public figure. Well, feels weird, but it's true. ah 

Nadège: You are. aner You are. Oh, my God. Like tens of thousands of followers across the Internet, across all of your platforms. 

Andrew: It's weird. It's weird. But you're right. But you're right. um You know, I advocate for both communities first because I think anyone who's marginalized, and we talked a second ago about privilege. Like, I have a fuck ton of privilege, too. I'm a white, cis, red person. I read I am non-binary, but I read as cis. So I have a ton of privilege in my spaces, too.

And as a white, disabled person who has the privilege of speech, I have to remember, like... Wow, i'm I'm fucking lucky to be able to do what I do and I should I need to use my voice to uplift black, brown, Asian, disabled people who don't have the same opportunity that I do in the in the spaces that I occupy. So I have to remember, like, it's such a fucking privilege to be able to do what I do. And I should be, so like, I reached this point of my activism where, yeah, being the front and center, that's nice. yeah i Yeah. Whatever. Being like the star is cool for a minute, but like, part of me likes to like, how can I use what I know to make your stuff better? Or like someone else's journey better? Because that to me is more important than like, I'm going to be the best.

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And was there a moment where you realized, I'm going to become an advocate and this is a life path for me? 

Andrew: I mean, the moment was, to be frank, the moment was I couldn't get a fucking job and nobody would hire me, and I was like, what do I do? How do I make money? I need to make i live i live on primarily, even now as they talk to me, live on primarily the Canadian version of the SSI, which is pretty fucking bad. Not a lot of money. i only Before my rent is paid, I only get like 1500 a month which really when you look at the cost of everything isn't a lot of money so I was like how am I gonna feed myself what do I do I was people were telling me my job my desire to speak about disability was a nice hobby but not really a job so i basically was like you i'm gonna make you one watch you make it one and so i started in 2014, 2013 when I started doing this, I started emailing queer magazines, emailing like The Advocate out, just cold emailing them and saying, have you ever had a disabled person talk about fucking in your magazine? Have you…? Or if you have, you want another one? like can… How do I get myself out there? And I would constantly put my name out and say, here's what I do. I'll write you some shit for free for your thing and we'll get my name out there. And so I did so much stuff for nothing because I was like, I just want to get known in this space so I can then start charging and make enough money to do what I do. And so really it wasn't like I wanted to become an advocate in this space necessarily. It was like, this is a thing that no one talks about that I talk about with my friends and family constantly that I never hear anywhere else. And like, it's a bit, it's a bit wider now, but in 2014, in 2013, 14, nobody was really talking about it so I was like, okay, I'll make this my platform. Let's just try And really I've been going, I've been going by the seat of my pants really since then. Like I don't, I don't have a producer. I don't have managers. It's me, myself and I being like, Hey, I'm here. and you want me to speak to your school group? Hey, I'm here. and you want me to do like this for you? Like I'm here. do you want me to write a book? Like I'm here, I'm here. What do you need me to do

Nadège: Wow. And I mean, I'm just inspired, honestly, hearing that you answered your soul's calling and also hearing the grit, like it didn't matter what life was going to throw in your way. You were going to find a way for yourself to live this life that you want, that you have created for yourself, that is continuing to grow. And you should be proud of yourself. 

Andrew: Thank you.

Nadège: It's incredible. And so one thing when we're thinking of disability and sex, a lot of folks say crip sex. And then a lot of other people have no idea what that means. But it's something I've heard a lot the more and more I dive into this community. And so what does the term crip sex mean and where did it come from?

Andrew: I wish I knew the answer to the second part. I have no idea who made it up. about ah It certainly was not me. um But I would say cripping up sex is like making it accessible. Talking about like pain, talking about what works, talking about how showing disabled people fucking and making it hot and showing it. as part of the culture. Like I did, I've done, and I'll film, I've done stuff that very explicitly was like, oh, you want to see that severely disabled person fuck? Here's a 22 minute video, go watch it Like, and I am not shy about that because I see it as an educational piece. I just did a talk a few weeks ago for the first occupational therapy and intimacy conference. And they were like, Oh, they were like, I was telling them about the video and I doing talk and talking about the video and they said, can you, can we use it as like a, as like a tool? Would you mind sending it along? So I've been getting emails all the last few weeks from participants who were like, I want to watch your video to understand how a disabled person like you gets pleasure. And I think that's so valuable. And so i have no idea where the term came from, but I think we use like, cripping just means like for me, it means making something accessible and like putting disability front and center and being okay with that.

Nadège: I love that. And I didn't actually know the piece about the accessibility part of it. I always thought the term was like how people reclaimed queer. And that really taught me something. 

Andrew: I mean, it is, to, like, to recl- to Crip is a reclamation of, like, cripple. And so from- but I like the word cripple because it's- it's a bit shocking. It's a bit like, oh wow, that's a bit taboo. So I have a tattoo on my chest that says queer cripple. And I- I put that deliberately so that when I'm making it out with a guy and we're gonna go fuck, he has to see that and be like, oh, this guy is really disabled. This is what I'm doing- If you can't reconcile with the fact that I'm a queer cripple, you should probably not get in my bed. Like, if that's not, if you're not okay that, you probably shouldn't be here. like I don't have time for your banana. I don't have time for your stuff. Like, I just get out of here. Because I've reached a point in my sexuality where, like, when I was 20 and 22, the blatant ableism that I was experiencing, I would swallow it down, pun intended. um I would swallow it. I would swallow it down. ah But I, you know, now as I'm 40, I'm like, I don't have the energy for this. Like I, i don't really date anymore. I work primarily with sex workers. um I hire them when I need to, um which again, is a huge privilege. I'm really lucky that I get to do that. um But I, I hire them when I need to. And like, you know, sometimes I hire them to come over, watch a movie and sleep next to me. Like it isn't people think that when you hire a worker, it's like this dirty seedy thing you're doing. It's really about creating connection when you want and how you want. And I think all disabled people should be, if they want to, should have be allowed to try. 

Nadège: I agree. And actually something, so before we were recording today, I was like, Andrew, I want to share an idea that I had. And then I stopped myself because I was like, I actually want to say it on the podcast. I have a radical thought that, because I work a lot with sex workers. We did an episode this season with a porn star intimacy coordinator talking about decriminalizing sex work. And I have a radical idea that one thing we should also do is in disability, like the the package, the government package that one would get on disability, why not have a pension in there for sex work, for intimacy related, yeah right?

Andrew: I have been I've been saying this for fucking years. They do it in Australia. They do it in the dent they do it in Denmark. It's already being done. They give you a stipend for a rainy day and you can do whatever you want with that money. And what if one month you want to like get your...get your rocks off without with a cool person. Like, why isn't that something? Because it's so much less about, for me anyway, it's less about let's get our rocks off and more about like, let's just hang out and let's just have the possibility of intimacy be there. And I think one of my, one of the things I bemoan liking men that so often the desire for relaxed pleasure is not there and so much like yeah let's fuck and then i'll I'll come and then I'll leave and for me it's like well no why can't we just like yeah we can do all those things but like can we just hang out and can we just like slow down it doesn't need to be blow and go can it just to be like let's just relax. 

Nadège: Okay, first off, I am obsessed with blow and go. And I also agree that this is, and in kink, you have aftercare, right? Like this is why people need that more in other areas because what you're talking about is aftercare.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. And i don't like I don't think, and disabled people deal with aftercare all the time when it comes to their bodies and people taking care of them. Like when someone helps me in the bathroom, I don't have aftercare for that. So if I can arrange it with a sex worker for when we're in a sexy moment and I've come too fast or something happens that quote unqu the feels embarrassing, wouldn't it be nice if the guy was like, oh, instead of me worried about, you know, my next client or my next thing, I can just take em beat with you and be with you. And I feel like a lot of queer men don't do that, whether they're disabled or not. And it's a big shame. 

Nadège: Absolutely. Absolutely. So anyone listening in government, you know, go ahead and pitch that. It's already working in other places. yeah Yeah. And you, in your book, you talk about um how you are in a relationship. I mean, it's a professional intimacy relationship, but with a sex worker going on seven years. Yeah.

Andrew: At the time I wrote it, it was seven years. where we were Actually, this October was will be eight years. ah so So it's eight now. 

Nadège: Yeah. And this is, again, so it's really nice. Like, there's opportunities for connection and humans need connection. And it's just another reason why sex work is real work and it's valuable. And another, right? Like, another nuance to that whole.

Andrew: Like, it's not just come over, where we're going fuck and then leave. Like, sometimes we'll have dinner. We'll go and we'll do, we'll have, like, One time he bought me helped me buy groceries. We went to the store and like did a grocery run. like It's way more intimate than I think people get it credit for. And I think it's not this dirty, seedy thing that we've made it out to be. And like I also think that there are disabled people who can't work a nine to five job, but they could be sex workers. So like it's very it's very accessible for those of us who can't work technically. but need quick cash because being disabled is fucking expensive. And so if you can make a quick buck by like blowing a dude or like, you know, doing that's a fantasy. 

Nadège: Absolutely. Yeah. Like this is real work and and and everyone is hot. Yeah, exactly. 

Andrew: Exactly.

Nadège: And so in your book, in chapter two, like you were, and you mentioned it today, like in your twenties, you swallowed a lot of ableism and just bad experiences because people were so ignorant. And in one part of your book, you talked about how someone literally said, I don't do people in wheelchairs. And they said that to your face. yeah And when I was reading that, I mean, this is just showing my privilege. I was horrified. I was like, I can't believe someone would even say such a thing. And for you and anyone listening, how do you respond to that and stay in your power and and your own self-love? 

Andrew: Well, 20-year-old me cried. i'm pretty sure I was like, now that's upsetting. with Like, what? And you just swallow it down because you're like you're you know you're trying to be cool. and when you're And when you're young like that, you like – image is everything. And it's like, oh, fuck, I can't let it bother me and I can't be upset by it And have to just – whatever. And I remember telling my girlfriend and she was like, what? That's trash. Who do I have to like destroy for you? what And I was like, no, no, it's okay. But now at 41, if somebody said that to me, I'd be like, well, you're, well, okay. Like you're missing out. I don't know what to tell you. Like, all right. Okay. And like, sometimes I'll post that stuff on social media to show like when I'm talking to the guy on Grindr or the apps and I'll show like, look, this is what we're dealing with when we just want to go for a coffee we want to have sex at 3am with the random, like everybody else does. Like we we just want to do what so many other queer men are doing and we're not given the same grace and and like chance to try. And I just think it's so sad that people think it's okay to see us as a little bit less than human. And the way we know that's true is when we say, I want to fuck you or I want to spend intimacy with you. They go, Oh no, I can't do that. I can't, can't do that. No.

Nadège: And to anyone who's experienced something like that or fears experiencing something like that, what would you say to folks in your own community?

Andrew: I would say um it sucks. I'm so sorry that it happened to you or it or might happen to you. It probably will. Gay men can be the worst. I'm so sorry. um But I would just say strong in the knowledge that like, That person's not right for you. And they've shown you they've shown you that they're not right for you by a statement like that. 

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And it also makes me think of how you had hosted a sex party for queer disabled, or was it queer disabled people or just disabled people? 

Andrew: It was disabled people.

Nadège: Love it and But this is another important thing. Like I imagine how hard it is to date and like if you were able to put yourself more consistently in communities where it's like, i don't have to explain my disability because we're all disabled in some way, how differently that would change things. What was your experience in that sex party?

Andrew: Oh my god, well, first of all, planning the party was... ridiculous because we didn't plan for it to be dubbed the disabled orgy, but somebody in the news put that headline out there without us knowing. And then they ran with it and we were like, well, I guess any press is good press. And then we got calls from Howard Stern. We got calls from the BBC being like, can we come film it? And we had to be like, no, no, you can't. Cause it's not a joke. It's not something you can like, it's not fodder for you. It's a real thing we're doing. And I remember, being called by one of these radio stations, these morning shock, shock radio shows. And they're from, I think they're from Australia. And they called us and it's like nighttime for me and it's morning time for them. they called us and said, all I so like, what do you, what do you guys do when you fuck in wheelchairs? Do you like bring, do you like bring your, bring your joysticks together? do you like bring your stumps together? And we were like, I remember stopping him and saying like, I know you're trying to make it all shock jocky for the viewers there, but it is a really serious thing we're trying to do here. We're trying to create a space to talk about sexuality and disability, and it's not a joke. And they like, I remember they didn't know what to do, and so they abruptly ended the call. And I was just like, fuck guys, it's not, I'm not trying to make it into this thing for you to make fun of. Like, it isn't funny to me that there is no space for disabled people to fuck. And I remember getting emails from other disabled people telling me that I was going to hell. How dare I? This is so dirty. How could you? Why would you do this to us? You make us look so bad, blah, blah. And I was just like, okay, wow. So sorry that I'm trying to do something here. And like the party wasn't even, I didn't have sex that night. I was too busy. right 

Nadège: You were hosting, right? The hostess doesn't get the orgasm. 

Andrew: Yeah. I didn't get blown or laid at all. I was, this is my job. And so i remember, but I remember it it was so full That there were people who flew in from, like, the U.S. There were people that flew in from Africa. There were people that flew in just to be here for this. And so what I realized is, like, oh, we've done something really important here. But it was really just a space where you could be sexy. You could be flirty. You could, you know, we did have beds set up. If you really wanted have sex, it was available to you. But, like… To see people get so polarized by me saying, I just want to fuck around as a disabled person. I want a space to do that. like it's so… It's very telling how what we really feel about disabled people is when we talk about them being intimate. That's how you know how somebody really feels about a disabled person.

Nadège: Yes. And it reminds me of something that you said to me once that I will never, ever forget, which is when people are mistreating or kind of being in their ignorance about disabled people to turn around to them and say, hey, if you are lucky enough to live a long life, you too will be disabled one day. And how do you want someone to treat you? And I just never forgot that. And so how does this inform your advocacy? And especially when it comes to sex, because it is an important piece. We really realize our bigotry around disabled people when sex gets thrown into the mix. 

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, well, to back up a little bit and answer the larger question of like, how would I feel? I think we need to reframe that a bit now. And I still say that I hope pretty openly, but I reframe it to say, even if you never become disabled, even if never touches your life which is which is is unlikely.

Nadège: I don't know i don't know a damn soul i in the dellulu salullu 

Andrew: Yeah if it never touches your life you should still give a shit because disabled people are people and they deserve they deserve that and you should still care for them because they did their person and so like How do I put that into my advocacy? I just think like, man, and especially when gay men replicate the bigotry. I'm like, don't you remember when you were a kid and some guy called you a gay slur and it hurt you? You're doing the same thing to me right now. Like right now, you're doing the same thing to me. Why don't you see that it's painful? And so like the subtle racism that gay men, the racism, the ableism, the trans misogyny that gay men will like do and then say, oh, but I'm one of your communities. I've been oppressed too. It's like have have you really like, let's try again. So I just, I implore those folks to remember, like remember when you were on the playground and some guy called you a faggot and you didn't like it? Well, guess what? When you perpetuate ableism, racism, and trans misogyny, we don't like it either. Try again.

Nadège: But you're right. Absolutely. You shouldn't care about something just because it could potentially be you someday. We should care because we should all care. And thinking of this, how do you counter society's tendency to desexualize people with disabilities?

Andrew: I…

Nadège: You make a porno? but Which you did, which we should all watch. And I also want to talk about that too. 

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I make a porno. And I feel like sometimes I'm the smutty disabled person that's like, I'm go to talk about sex all the time. Because the more I talk about it, the more people are like, oh, that disabled guy who can't feed himself can blow a guy and help me give him pleasure. Like what? That disabled guy that needs help in the bathroom can make a guy like come or make somebody get excited. That disabled guy that I don't, that I didn't give a second thought to is really fucking hot. What do I like. It's just, it's just about putting it in people's radar and being, and making them realize that like, you may not, you might not have noticed this before, But disabled people are all around you and they're all fucking gorgeous. So yeah like pay attention. 

Nadège: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so what I'm hearing for anybody who's listening is one, like, look for this type of media, look for representations of queer people, crippled people um having a sexy, fun time. And there's more of it. There's not a lot, but there's more of it. um And then I'm also hearing like, anybody who's disabled themselves like step into your hotness maybe you don't need to make a porno. I love that you did andrew because you're like 

Andrew: I mean large you could and should you yeah listen everybody everybody needs an only fans we all need to make money right now like if that's if that gets you off the ssi for a couple months and you can like live i say good go for it um and i think disabled people making their own porn is a great idea. 

Nadège: I agree. I mean, and ah for me, when I found porn, it changed my life because I found queer porn from the Crash Pad series, which does have disabled 

Andrew: Aren't they incredible? 

Nadège: They're incredible. 

Andrew: They keep telling you to apply, but I'm like, guys, I can't fly out to, I can't fly anywhere. Like, you're to have to come to me, I would to do it, but just like, ah but and I would love to do, what I've done two scenes now, one for my friends, OnlyFans, and one for a studio, but like, It was such an important experience that porn I did with my, my main sex worker, who's the one I talk about in the book. And basically, when they emailed me and said, we want you to do a porn, you can do it from your house. I emailed him and said, you're the only person that I trust and care enough about to do this with. Like, I'll make sure you get paid. Can you, would you basically fuck me like we do off camera with the camera? And like, well, yep, sure. No problem. And like, But I remember when it came out, people on the comments of that video, they were saying, oh, it's so nice of him to help that disabled guy out, blah, blah. And I had to be, I didn't say anything, but I remember thinking like, what? I was there too. yeah What? Okay. And so it just, it showed me how like, still the ableism is towards the able-bodied guy. no the ableism is towards me, but it's praising the able-bodied guy for like, oh, good for you. And no, like, what?

That's so ridiculous. And so the porn is just a reminder of like 22 minutes and five seconds of like, oh that disabled guy can get hard. That disabled guy needs help to get in bed. That disabled guy can come. All these questions that I have people ask me on the apps and on the daily when I'm looking to hook up, I'm like, here's a 22 minute video showing you exactly what you need to know. Watch that first and then come back to me.

Nadège: That's I mean, it's a hot instruction manual, but it's really it's a radical act. And there's so many studies to that show taking sexy selfies, taking nudes or making your own porn. It really boosts your self-esteem and self-worth and being able to see yourself like that. And we also devote a whole episode to digital intimacy. But I love that you did that because it's so important. 

And going back to your book, which again, everybody should read, one thing that you talk about in this book, which is brilliant, is how to start conversations about sex and pleasure if you have a disability or if you're someone receiving that information because you're with someone with a disability. And while everyone should go and read your book, do you have a tip that you would want to share of like, this is a good communication tool when we're dealing with intimacy and disability?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, the first question that is the first question that I would say you should ask is, what are your access needs? How can I help you in the bedroom? I think you're really hot and I want I want to spend time with you, but I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. What do I do? What do I need to know? What is good for you? Like, just ask. and And, you know, my answer to non-disabled folks who might ask that is, you're probably going to say something ableist. You're probably going to put your foot in your mouth. You're probably going make a mistake. And for me, that doesn't bother me because I'm teaching you. If I can, and I'm wary of the word teach because I don't, I don't want people to assume that every disabled person has to teach somebody something, but I put myself in the situation where I want to teach you. Like, that gets me off. 

When I first started seeing John, my sex worker, he had never worked with a worker, he'd never worked with a disabled person before. And when I tell you that was really hot because he had never had that experience. And I was like, oh, I get to show you that it's hot. I get to introduce you to this idea that somebody who you would probably never pay attention to on the street or think about sexually, i\I can show you that that's great. I can give you pleasure. Like, that's incredible. Like, so I think lean into whatever questions you have. Ask them respectfully. Don't be a dick about it, but ask them respectfully and just say like, I don't know what I'm doing and I want to learn. What do I need to know?

Nadège: Yeah. And what I also heard that I love is like reaffirming, like, I think you're hot. How do i help you? 

Andrew: Yeah. 

Nadège: What something I picked up on in your book is as someone like you're severely disabled. So you do have care workers that intimacy with a lover while there's going to be elements of care there, you do want it to feel different than, you know, the the care workers who come. Right. and Yeah. And so, yeah. What were you thinking? 

Andrew: No, no, I was just i was actually prepping for you to ask to whatever you're gonna say. But I think, um you know, I think that's so important. and Like so much of my touch daily is with a glove and it's with like, you know, a routine and it's very sanitary because it has to be and it should be. There's a very clear delineated boundary there. Even in the book, there's a section where i talk about asking one of my care workers to help me with a sex toy. And then that part of the book, people the reviews I've read some people are like well Andrew shouldn't have asked the worker to help because it's exploiting their ability to make their own choice and it feels very uncomfortable that he thinks it's okay and I was like did you read the rest of it because if you read that part of the book she said sure no problem I'll help you what so like it's just funny that they have no problem if someone's helping me but then how dare I ask them to like set me up with a vibrator and she wasn't in the room. She left. I was alone. So like when I read reviews of the book, they're like, that part made me uncomfortable. I always go, good. Well, I hope you realize that some of us don't have the privilege of not asking for help with that. 

And so like, and that part of the book I love the most because, and when I first read reviews, the people weren't comfy about that. I got really defensive and I got like, well, I'm going to like defend myself. And I was like, oh no, just leave it, leave it. Because what can I do? People are going to say what they say, but it just shows that like the simple act of self-pleasure, which we all who are non-disabled take for granted.

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. 

Andrew: So inaccessible to so many of us that like, I didn't want to ask my care worker to help me with the toy. I was terrified to do it because I knew it was breaking some sort of rule. And I was like, well, this is really weird. I don't like this, but I have no other option. What do I do? And like so many of us with disabilities are put in a situation where we don't have the freedom and the privacy and the ability to pleasure ourselves. And so I was so thankful when this one worker said, yeah, no problem. Sure, let's figure it out. 

Nadège: Yeah. and by the way, I read that part of the book and I did not get any, she seemed so happy to help and wrote a wonderful relationship. 

Andrew: She, I call her Carrie in the book. That's not her real name, but she was so sweet to me and so funny. She put the thing on my junk and said, okay, have fun. I'll be back in 20 minutes. And like, it was just so sweet of her to like know what it meant and know how important it was. And I, and I've had where other work is since, and I've said, like, I need to film a video about masturbation. I need to be not wearing clothes for the video. Can you help me, like, undress and redress? And they will, and it's fun, and we laugh about and we move on. But, like, the… the discomfort I have around asking them, because I don't want to put anybody in a weird spot, but also realizing I don't have another option to do this by myself. I don't have the freedom to take off my clothes and be like sexy with myself if I want to. That's not an option for me. So when I have a worker that's willing to to try to allow me to explore my own body, of course I'm going to say yes.

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And another point that you made in the book that I also think is important here, because you share the story of how there was another care worker when you wanted to put on a kinky leather harness and the care worker had an aversion to it and he helped. But then afterwards, he was a little bit colder towards you. But you said something in the book of why become a caregiver if you are not open to loving and accepting like all people you are in this position position care. And I don't want to sit here and try to impose on people like, hey, if you become a nurse, you have to be perfect and never have, like, we don't want to say that. But you do make a good point there. 

Andrew: If you do become a nurse, you have to be much nicer to disabled folks because, wow, some of the nurses that I work with, are they need to be retrained on how to treat a person nicely. Wow. But, sorry, what was the original question? 

Nadège: Well, no, but even thinking of like what you were saying with the worker who helped you with the sex toy and how sweet and wonderful she was. But then there was this other worker who, who had who you know, it wasn't as good of an experience. And with people in caregiving, because caregiving is an industry. We live in a capitalist society, especially in America. Like I said, I grew up in and out of a hospital. I met nurses who I'm like, you you never wanted to become a nurse, friend. yeah like you do You do not like your job and you do not like people. And I don't know why you decided to become a nurse. Maybe someone told you to do that. But I have just like, oof, I'm having flashbacks now. But anyway, I've seen it over and over again. But then I've also seen the nurses, doctors, health care providers, you know, at home workers, all these people who genuinely love their job. And there's this difference of intention that is met with it. And maybe that's just maybe there is no question. It's just to leave that where it is and to challenge people to consider if you're in a caregiving industry and maybe you don't really love it. Maybe this is an opportunity for you to realize there's someone better suited for that job and you can take those skills and do something else. It's a complicated thing, but it's a big struggle. I've experienced it and you've experienced it. 

Andrew: Oh, yeah. And I mean, we always talk about caregiver burnout, which is a real thing. And I'm not discounting that. It's very real. And I think anybody that works in care understands the challenges of, especially with somebody like me, when you're working with somebody, when I travel to do talks, when i at least when I did, pre-COVID for me to get somebody to go with me. I'm asking them to leave their home, leave their job, be my arms and legs for probably four days, 24 hours on, no breaks. If I need you, you're it. It's like, I need you. And so that's fucking hard. And so we always talk about caregiver burnout and I get that. But I also think, what about needing care burnout it's exhausting to need somebody all the time for fucking everything and have to be nice and calm and cordial and don't and not and don't be mean and don't don't be… 

Nadège: It's almost like apologizing for existing. 

Andrew: Oh yeah and so constantly making sure like you stay on your best behavior and you don't have a feeling and you're not upset and you don't lash out and you're like Especially right now when we're recording this, it's winter, so like it's December now. It's fucking cold. I can't go outside. I can't have the endorphins and the like vitamin D of the sun. So I'm stuck inside and the only people that can help me are my caregivers. So like now is around the time when you're like, okay, I'm fucking exhausted. to bit i need I need like a break. So everybody talks about caregiver burnout, but they don't think about how exhausting it is to need care, to know you have no other options. Even if they're the loveliest caregiver, you have days where you're like, fuck off. and don't want you near me. Why are you touching me? Get away. but i don't, don't have a choice. And so you like, I wish we had a space where the disabled person could say, I love my care so much, but I'm burnt out of needing you.

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And so, I mean, we've, I love everything that we've talked about because like I said, everything that people think they know about disability is wrong. And what you're so beautiful at doing, Andrew, is like calling people in and really showing them all of their blind spots. And to go back to thinking about sex and also thinking about queer joy and crip joy, because that's how you end your book. What are some awesome tips for crip sex that you would give or that you have learned? And just, again, like thinking of of that sexual joy, that crippled sexual joy. 

Andrew: I love the way you phrase that. um 

Nadège: I know. I'm like, am I sounding like the most able-bodied person right now? 

Andrew: A little bit, but it's really adorable and I really like it. It's fine. It's good. um um What is my crippled sex tip? Well, your mobility aid can make a really great sex toy. so like, don't be afraid to fuck in your wheelchair. Don't be afraid to, like, use your cane. Don't be afraid to use pillows. Don't be afraid to have a body that doesn't look like someone expected it to. So, like, if you're worried about taking off your clothes because your spine is curved or because you're spastic or because it doesn't look like the model in the magazine, who the fuck cares? Like, and I know that's way easier said than done. I get that. But like you were saying earlier, take a sexy selfie. When I started taking selfies, we didn't have iPhones yet. So it was really hard to like do all that back in the day. I remember taking one for this guy at like two in the morning in my dorm room. And he was like, can I see your cock? was like, okay. So I had to...I had to like pull out my pants, which took me like 20 minutes. And I was huffing and puffing and red in the face and nobody was helping me. And like, it was on one of those really cheap camera phones. And so was like trying to hold the phone and like angle it so that I you could show everything, but also make it look really good. And it was very, very complicated. And he then he was like, so I took one and i sent it and he goes… That's not good. Can I see more? And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? And I had to be like, no, that's all I got, man. So sorry. And he was like, oh, I don't think want to come over. It's fine. And I was like, you know how long it took me to do that for you? Like it took me so long. and so like now with the inventive iPhones and all the things we can do with them, like take that selfie. do You don't have to even send it to anybody. It can be just for you to be like, oh, this is my disabled body with no clothes. and that's really cool. And so that's a great tip. 

And then when it comes to like partnered sex, be ready for them to have uncomfortable questions. And if you really care about the person, I would say listen to them because there's a tendency in the disabled community for us to be like, oh my God, that question is so ableist. Like, fuck you Don't ask me that. How dare you? And that's fine. And you can feel that way. And I get that. But they're going to ask you what may seem like silly questions because they don't know. What they're really saying is, I want to know and I'm scared to ask. and I don't want to offend you, but I want to know. And so that is such a gift, I think.

What they're really saying is I want to get to know you, but I’ve know that I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing. How do I do this? And so they're going to say enable this thing and you have to sit there and take it and then decide, like, do i care enough about this person or care enough about this experience to try? and I would say give it a shot because guess what? I'm disabled and I have said some really inappropriate things in the bedroom and I didn't mean to too. So like...give somebody the grace of like oh they want to give it a shot let's give a shot. 

Nadège: Oh I love that and i think that's just really powerful words also coming from you because it's easy for anybody else to say that um and love the like both like trying to assume best of someone just to create really good sex possible moments because they're possible like i said you end your book in the most beautiful way talking about like like sharing more stories from your sex life, two of which are so sweet and and beautiful and people will have to buy the book to. 

I don't even remember what the last two were but i'm sure they're great. 

Nadège: They're great. Hey, I just read it, so I can affirm that they're great. But as we close out today, I always like to ask a few rapid fire questions. So you can think of, right, just like little orgasms, little orgasmic questions at the end. And so we'll have a couple questions for you. And then, and then people will have to find you because I know everyone's obsessed with you after this wonderful conversation. But are you?

Andrew: Let's do it. I'm ready. 

Nadège: Yay. Okay. So first rapid fire question is, what is the best sex advice you've ever received? 

Andrew: Get out of your own head.

Nadège: Say one more time. 

Andrew: Get out of your own head. 

Nadège: Get out of your own head. For a second, I thought you said give your own head and I was like, tell me more. How? 

Andrew: I mean, listen, if I could remove a rib... at 

Nadège: Me too. Oh my, are you kidding? My mouth does magical things. If I could give it to myself. Yeah. i mean, wow. i love why And there we go. We just got out of our own heads. So the next rapid fire question is what is the worst sex advice you ever got?

Andrew: It's happened to everyone. say more well because no it hasn't you everyone doesn't experience the ableism the isolation the like the like just the rudeness that we get when we try to access sexuality no it doesn't it doesn't happen to everyone and and doesn't it's not the same way and so the worst event the worst advice we've gotten is just oh it's happening everyone just get over it what okay like i know what you're trying to say but it's really not helpful like no. 

Nadège: Yeah, it's the opposite of helpful. and with our last question, what do you hope will change in the way the world views sex in the years to come?

Andrew: I hope that we stop seeing sex as this like absolute, needs to be penetrative, needs to be all of these things that are often inaccessible to so many of us and starts being way more about how do you feel when you're having this experience? Does it feel good or does it feel bad? How does it feel when you're doing it? And kind of wish we would move away from the body bodying and more into like, how does the mind feel when the body is bodying? How are those two places connected? And I don't think we're there yet.

Nadège: We're not, but we're getting there. And Andrew, thank you so much for today. This has been, I always learn so much when I talk to you and I can't even imagine what everybody listening has learned and felt. And so I know everyone's obsessed with you. Where can people find you and get more from you?

Andrew: They can find me andrewgurza.com is my website. They can book me there for talks. They can order the book with Notes from a Queer Cripple, How to Cultivate Queer Disabled Joy and Be Hot While Doing It, wherever you get books. And I've heard from my publisher that there will be an audiobook at some point. I don't know when, but they've greenlit that, so I don't know when that's coming, but it is happening. um They can listen to my award-winning podcast, Disability After Dark, every Sunday where i shine light I shine a light on disability stories, including sex stories. um So you can listen to me there every week. um And then I'm on Instagram in blue sky. just my name, Andrew Gurza.

Nadège: Yay. Wonderful. Well, everybody's going to give you a follow and I love your podcast. So when you're done listening to Pleasure Science, go listen to Disability After Dark. 

Andrew: You should be on my podcast. 

Nadège: Oh my God. I'd be honored. Are you kidding? 

Andrew: We should talk. 

Nadège: I would love that. Ah, we will. Well, for everybody listening, that is it for this week's episode of Pleasure Science. Please join us next week where we will be taking a look back at season two and everything that we have learned along the way. In the meantime, say hi to me on Instagram and TikTok at Pleasure Science.

We love hearing from you, and I know that this episode really made you guys feel something. So go ahead and subscribe and leave comments on YouTube letting us know what did you learn from today? What was your big takeaway and aha moment? I always listen or not listen, read all of your comments, and you'll notice that I respond and say hi too. So come say hi on YouTube.

And remember, listeners of this podcast get 10% off of all of our amazing offerings that I have been sharing with you all season. So if you go to pleasure science.com, you can use the code pleasure science pod to get 10% off any of our incredible guided video journeys.

Things like the touch and trust method where you learn how to read your bodies, your lover's body, like a map and your own. one of which I actually had Andrew consult for. We have the BDSM Fantasy Lab, the Art of Flirtation, just so many wonderful tools for you to use. So go ahead and check that out at pleasurescience.com and use that 10% off code. And before we go, I want you all to think of one thing that you have been craving to do, a little or big pleasure that you have been putting off, and I dare you to go experience that in the next 24 hours. And perhaps start by getting off this podcast and doing that thing right now.

Farewell. I'll see you next week.

This podcast is a pleasure science production hosted by me, Nadège, your resident sex scholar. The pleasure science podcast is produced by Laura Moore and edited by Camille Furman-Collot.

Our music is by Octosound and is licensed under the Pixabay content license. To find out more about Pleasure Science and to sign up for our online courses, please visit www.pleasurescience.com.